From lojban+bncCLr6ktCfBBDi1O3sBBoERjHxqQ@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 12:16:10 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q7BjN-0007WD-UP; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:16:10 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf1370460gxk.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:15:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:cc :subject:message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SW7dzjUVEXGHzk4lXhmAYpb1HExDOH9j/4yunAE/MX0=; b=fR9XWj/O5b00p3L6y8zB9gaRGYZtWQfxxNvazZCuVrP06AyNaOMiNDw1vYsNUb73D/ nsj0ksJuOxpPnnchgFXbucjAYLrVdAXGBt13EVkHC2fBqUM5jHOB8HJ/nIqk3jw7Jk9G YUAelLiMoN9tQxGNCYaVepTD4XVBN6wEJGpj8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:cc:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition:content-transfer-encoding; b=MVWz4888b70EAyv1AA0FVWYJdOSGEiG8VkwNgIsYh4tA4HNkCPFOgZDGoLmywTTn6M wTFwKl5zO7/y7vw6QZKPWqYutr5++nhXcchP32uypL6Hb23ufw7A84gk1O3xvrI9bb1G C2IoNdBJi8oOHY/EFFhgy10fSgYEpVgJfWYcw= Received: by 10.150.204.2 with SMTP id b2mr228946ybg.76.1302030946618; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:15:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.32.138 with SMTP id c10ls120126ibd.2.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.96.71 with SMTP id i7mr6940icn.46.1302030942502; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.96.71 with SMTP id i7mr6939icn.46.1302030942468; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:15:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f182.google.com (mail-iw0-f182.google.com [209.85.214.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xk8si1099415icb.1.2011.04.05.12.15.41 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 209.85.214.182 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=209.85.214.182; Received: by iwn33 with SMTP id 33so805586iwn.13 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:15:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.51.65 with SMTP id vh1mr26919icb.435.1302030940563; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:15:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunflowerriver.org ([68.35.164.105]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id uk4sm4329737icb.9.2011.04.05.12.15.36 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:15:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:15:33 -0600 From: ".alyn.post." To: Alex Rozenshteyn Cc: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? Message-ID: <20110405191533.GC11417@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: Alex Rozenshteyn , lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20110405163732.GA11417@alice.local> <20110405183621.GB11417@alice.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 209.85.214.182 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .i ki'edo'u u'a mi ca burna .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:00:52PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > na xu se jetnu lo du'u < li'u>> <> dunli lo smun= i >=20 > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:36 PM, .alyn.post. > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: >=20 > .i o'onai ke'a si ko'a >=20 > .i mi fanva lu ko xu li'u fu zoi .gy. "is it true that you will make > it true?" .gy. .a zoi .gy. "Can you make it true?" .gy. >=20 > .i mi na jimpe lo nu cusku ko'a va'o lo selma'o be su'o zo fa to zoi > .fanva. I can't say my example sentence without using FA .fanva. toi >=20 > .i ki'edo'u mi ca me lo jimpe poi do xusra > .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. >=20 > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 01:59:21PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD doi .alan.post. > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e = na jimpe fi lo mukti > do'e zo > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD ke'a > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD ni'o > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno l= o selma'o zo fa .i > ku'i > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD (I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "k= o" and "xu" > together, and > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD I'm not sure why you used "ke'a" > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they= shouldn't be used > when not > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD necessary.) > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD <[1][2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD doi .arpis. > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD .i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi = djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo > rokci > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD li'u > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo= cusku be ke'a > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -= 0400, .arpis. wrote: > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > I'm biased, but I find the English= structure to be more > understandable > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD and > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > natural, and not only because I sp= eak English. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > The selbri comes early in the sent= ence, allowing the listener > to start > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > understanding the relationships be= tween the sumti before the > sentence > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD is > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > finished, and FA tags, unlike case= endings, have no intrinsic > meaning > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > apart from the selbri. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > Also, as I understand it, the FA t= ags are meant to provide the > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD facility to > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > reorder sentences when it is conve= nient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo > karce}, > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD not > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > to allow arbitrary re-orderings; t= hat's what BAI can be for. A > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD somewhat > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > contrived example: {kla la .suzyn.= xekla lo karce tekla la > .berlin. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD sekla > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > la .paris. co'e} > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, J= oel T. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD <[1][2][3]joelofarabia@gmail.com> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > wrote: > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > OK, fair enough. I hope my comment= s didn't seem overly > dogmatic. If > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > indeed as you say all these elemen= ts are indispensable then I > am > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > wrong, and as I said in my origina= l post, I couldn't be > happier! > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD ? =EF=BF=BD > In that case it would be like me saying th= at English is flawed > because > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > you can remove all the words of Fr= ench origin and you'd still > have a > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > complete language. The premise is = correct, but the inertia of > current > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > usage means that this will never h= appen. I just never thought > that > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > such variety could be present in t= he grammar of a language and > not > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > just the vocabulary. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > I suppose I should have really sta= rted by giving an example. > In > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD ([2][3][4]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~op= oudjis/ > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2change= places.html), if I have > understood > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > correctly it basically tells me th= at if I feel like it I can > say (and > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > therefore have to be able to under= stand): > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD ? > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berli= n. zo'e le karce (English > structure) > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > and > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin= . fe la paris. klama > (Turkish > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > structure) > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > You can imagine how hard it is for= native English speakers to > get used > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > to Turkish sentence structure, in = fact my parents never quite > did. At > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > least in Turkish when you change t= he structure of a sentence > you do it > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > for a reason, like emphasis. But L= ojban expects me to be able > to adapt > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > mid-paragraph for somebody who use= s any and all possible > sentence > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > structures on a whim! My brain wou= ld flip! > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > Everything I know about language t= ells me that people get used > to > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > expressing themselves according to= specific structures. Which > is why I > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > arrived at the conclusion that any= population of fluent Lojban > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > speakers would very quickly get us= ed to ordering certain > sentences in > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > certain ways instead of constantly= mixing up their grammar, > which > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > requires conscious thought. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > Again, please do correct me if I'm= wrong, and I get the > feeling I > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > probably am. I would like to thank= everybody who has replied > to my > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > original post for taking it in the= spirit intended. You have > all > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > encouraged me to take a closer loo= k at Lojban! > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen > <[3][4][5]lukeaber...@gmail.com> wrote: > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're m= issing at this early stage > in your > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > learning > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > is that both FA *and* knowing th= e place structures are > extremely > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > important > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > if you want to be fluent. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > I understand your concerns. You = agreed that I was > representing your > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > argument accurately. What you ma= y have misunderstood was > that my > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD last > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > paragraph about "if one group of= people liked the place > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD structure.... > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > been > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > dropped out of the language by t= his group)" was mildly > sarcastic. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > The idea of a group of people us= ing lojban and simply > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > forgetting/dropping FA > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > and/or the default place structu= re of the gismu is > completely > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD absurd. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > It > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > could happen, but it would take = (my guess) centuries of > shifting for > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > that to > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > happen. It's so fundamental to a= proper understanding of the > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD language > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > that > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > if anyone dropped FA or began fo= rgetting the place > structures, I > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD would > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > argue > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > that it was darn-near a complete= ly different language. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > I'd put it on par with English s= witching to a system more > like what > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > they > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > have in Turkey (as you describe = it). Such a thing would be > (at best) > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > an > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > extremely bastardized version of= English. Likewise, lojban > without > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD FA > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > would > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > be quite a stretch. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, = Joel T. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD <[4][5][6]joelofara...@gmail.com> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > wrote: > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > That was my point exactly. Tru= e fluency means completely > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > internalizing > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > a language so that the words j= ust flow out of your mouth > without > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > thinking. You're completely "o= ut of the book" to use a > chess > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > expression. And a community of= truly fluent people would > be > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > influenced > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > more by each other than any co= nscious thought given to the > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD official > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir= -Whorf test would demand > nothing > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD less. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > The point I'm making about run= ning two systems > side-by-side is > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD that > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > in > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > any community of truly fluent = people, either one of them > would get > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > phased out, or they would dive= rge in meaning, usage, > connotation > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > etc. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > At the very least it would bec= ome a way of differentiating > between > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > cliques, which is the thin end= of the wedge for > dialectisation. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD You > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > just can't have two ways of do= ing exactly the same thing > with only > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > whim to choose between them. I= t's great in class, but in > the field > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > it's not tenable. It's not how= language works. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Berge= n > <[5][6][7]lukeaber...@gmail.com> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD wrote: > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > I think his point was that t= hese dialectic splits could > result > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD in > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > two > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > groups > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > of people not being able to = understand one another. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > If one group of people liked= using the place structure > so much > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > that they > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > just ignored FA what would h= appen if they saw something > like {fi > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > lo zdani > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > cu > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and go= t completely confused (you > know, cuz > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > generations > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > later FA would have basicall= y been dropped out of the > language > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD by > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > this > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > group). > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 = PM, Michael Turniansky < > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > [6][7][8]mturnian...@gmail.com= >wrote: > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:0= 8 PM, Joel T. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > <[7][8][9]joelofara...@gmail.com> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > wrote: > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > >> In any case, surely runni= ng two systems side-by-side > is > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD asking > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > for > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > >> dialectisation (is that a= word?), where speakers in > one area > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > get used > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > >> to one system while speak= ers in another prefer the > other? > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > It can, and does. But we c= onsider the flexibility to > be a > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD plus. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > That > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > way, any person coming fro= m a natural language > background of > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > say, > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > Turkish, > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > can from sentences the way= that seems most natural to > them, > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > while > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > someone > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > coming from an English bac= kground can form setnences > the most > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > natural > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > way to > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > them. And both will be und= erstood equally well. We > had, for > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > example, > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > a > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > while a back, a discussion= over which was "better": to > use > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD "cu" > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > often, > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > or to > > ? =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumt= i that are competely > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > terminated so > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > that > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > there was no need for it (= i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs. > "lo > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD gerku > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > ku > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > barda"). There are vocal p= roponents on each side, so > it > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD amounts > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > to a > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > dialectical split, but.. s= o what? > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > --gejyspa > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > -- > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > You received this message = because you are subscribed > to the > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > Google > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > Groups > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > "lojban" group. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > To post to this group, sen= d email to > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD [8][9][10]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > To unsubscribe from this g= roup, send email to > > ? =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > [9][10][11]lojban+unsubscribe@goog= legroups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > For more options, visit th= is group at > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > > >[10][11][12]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > -- > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > You received this message beca= use you are subscribed to > the Google > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > Groups > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > "lojban" group. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > To post to this group, send em= ail to > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD [11][12][13]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > To unsubscribe from this group= , send email to > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > [12][13][14]lojban+unsubscribe= @googlegroups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > For more options, visit this g= roup at > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > >[13][14][15]http://groups.googl= e.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > -- > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > You received this message because = you are subscribed to the > Google > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > Groups "lojban" group. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > To post to this group, send email = to > [14][15][16]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > To unsubscribe from this group, se= nd email to > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > [15][16][17]lojban+unsubscribe@goo= glegroups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > For more options, visit this group= at > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > [16][17][18]http://groups.google.c= om/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > -- > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > -- > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > You received this message because = you are subscribed to the > Google > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Groups > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > "lojban" group. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > To post to this group, send email = to > [18][19]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > To unsubscribe from this group, se= nd email to > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > [19][20]lojban+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > For more options, visit this group= at > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > [20][21]http://groups.google.com/g= roup/lojban?hl=3Den. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > References > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > Visible links > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 1. mailto:[21][22]joelofarabia@gma= il.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 2. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > [22][23]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons= /less2changeplaces.html > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 3. mailto:[23][24]lukeaber...@gmai= l.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 4. mailto:[24][25]joelofara...@gma= il.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 5. mailto:[25][26]lukeaber...@gmai= l.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 6. mailto:[26][27]mturnian...@gmai= l.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 7. mailto:[27][28]joelofara...@gma= il.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 8. mailto:[28][29]lojban@googlegro= ups.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 9. mailto:[29][30]lojban%2Bunsubsc= ribe@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 10. [30][31]http://groups.google.c= om/group/lojban?hl=3Den > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 11. mailto:[31][32]lojban@googlegr= oups.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 12. mailto:[32][33]lojban%2Bunsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 13. [33][34]http://groups.google.c= om/group/lojban?hl=3Den > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 14. mailto:[34][35]lojban@googlegr= oups.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 15. mailto:[35][36]lojban%2Bunsubs= cribe@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > 16. [36][37]http://groups.google.c= om/group/lojban?hl=3Den > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD -- > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD -- > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD You received this message because yo= u are subscribed to the > Google > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Groups "lojban" group. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD To post to this group, send email to > [37][38]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD To unsubscribe from this group, send= email to > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD [38][39]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegro= ups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD For more options, visit this group a= t > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD [39][40]http://groups.google.com/gro= up/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD -- > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Alex R > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD -- > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD You received this message because you are subs= cribed to the Google > Groups > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD "lojban" group. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD To post to this group, send email to [41]lojba= n@googlegroups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD [42]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD For more options, visit this group at > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD [43]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl= =3Den. > > > > References > > > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Visible links > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 1. mailto:[44]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 2. mailto:[45]joelofarabia@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 3. [46]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/ > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 4. mailto:[47]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 5. mailto:[48]joelofara...@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 6. mailto:[49]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 7. mailto:[50]mturnian...@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 8. mailto:[51]joelofara...@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 9. mailto:[52]lojban@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 10. mailto:[53]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 11. [54]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > > =EF=BF=BD 12. mailto:[55]lojban@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 13. mailto:[56]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 14. [57]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > > =EF=BF=BD 15. mailto:[58]lojban@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 16. mailto:[59]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 17. [60]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > > =EF=BF=BD 18. mailto:[61]lojban@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 19. mailto:[62]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 20. [63]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > > =EF=BF=BD 21. mailto:[64]joelofarabia@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD 22. > [65]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/les= s2changeplaces.html > > =EF=BF=BD 23. mailto:[66]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD 24. mailto:[67]joelofara...@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD 25. mailto:[68]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD 26. mailto:[69]mturnian...@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD 27. mailto:[70]joelofara...@gmail.com > > =EF=BF=BD 28. mailto:[71]lojban@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 29. mailto:[72]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 30. [73]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > > =EF=BF=BD 31. mailto:[74]lojban@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 32. mailto:[75]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 33. [76]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > > =EF=BF=BD 34. mailto:[77]lojban@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 35. mailto:[78]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 36. [79]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > > =EF=BF=BD 37. mailto:[80]lojban@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 38. mailto:[81]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > =EF=BF=BD 39. [82]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > -- > .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to [83]lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [84]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > [85]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >=20 > -- > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Alex R >=20 > References >=20 > Visible links > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 2. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 3. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com > 4. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/ > 5. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 6. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 7. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 8. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com > 9. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 10. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 11. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 12. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 13. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 14. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 15. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 16. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 17. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 18. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 19. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 20. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 21. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 22. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com > 23. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2c= hangeplaces.html > 24. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 25. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 26. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 27. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com > 28. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 29. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 30. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 31. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 32. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 33. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 34. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 35. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 36. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 37. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 38. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 39. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 40. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 41. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 42. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 43. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 44. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 45. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com > 46. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/ > 47. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 48. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 49. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 50. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com > 51. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 52. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 53. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 54. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 55. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 56. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 57. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 58. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 59. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 60. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 61. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 62. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 63. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 64. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com > 65. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2c= hangeplaces.html > 66. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 67. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 68. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 69. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com > 70. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 71. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 72. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 73. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 74. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 75. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 76. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 77. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 78. mailto:lojban%25252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 79. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 80. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 81. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 82. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den > 83. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 84. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 85. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den --=20 .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.