From lojban+bncCLr6ktCfBBCQ2-3sBBoExSNQOA@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 12:29:45 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q7BwU-0003Oc-BP; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:29:45 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf163689pvc.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:29:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject :message-id:mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; bh=RsGc/vPzCoqQsydlwGh0a34THi9CrWih4SWjgTy3M5Q=; b=svsFNxc1D2rg1bI94WniqQH2aep0+5RAQxmxDSZI/gVaq5tf4SOD70IO+Vx5usLfXo 9H1wNCNwSmHhzy+T78jg2k97xBk1v0ctvKoAHCSVlg5AHOSfdBSGRCRwUX3dlwEgNzqG dBo13+RwLJyUkg83M7LA/AAHKQtfTpw/mObk8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id :mail-followup-to:references:mime-version:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; b=Gc1T0Mz1u53EqtvDKw9sdyA8Dusft0dxE0aeFcZHwuqfuXhX/roofnrrtwdNxCZOF5 BhjjLOkp1drRkvHaJDEgMxF2dIZeGTFIAPSVQYbGvrQZ/QlgJ1tJssRrxQKPyb5tttsZ tZmz4k4TrIVnufSzRxSg3NJyf59CV/WqQERdU= Received: by 10.142.148.17 with SMTP id v17mr17568wfd.6.1302031760058; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:29:20 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.142.201.17 with SMTP id y17ls88573wff.0.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.185.4 with SMTP id i4mr45681wff.41.1302031757958; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.185.4 with SMTP id i4mr45680wff.41.1302031757896; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f169.google.com (mail-pv0-f169.google.com [74.125.83.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x35si6525995wfd.0.2011.04.05.12.29.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 74.125.83.169 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) client-ip=74.125.83.169; Received: by mail-pv0-f169.google.com with SMTP id 4so373830pvg.0 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.48.10 with SMTP id v10mr59238wfv.185.1302031756161; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sunflowerriver.org (c-68-35-164-105.hsd1.nm.comcast.net [68.35.164.105]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z10sm679088wfj.0.2011.04.05.12.29.12 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:29:09 -0600 From: ".alyn.post." To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? Message-ID: <20110405192909.GD11417@alice.local> Mail-Followup-To: lojban@googlegroups.com References: <20110405163732.GA11417@alice.local> <20110405183621.GB11417@alice.local> Mime-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 74.125.83.169 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of alanpost@sunflowerriver.org) smtp.mail=alanpost@sunflowerriver.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline .i ki'e di'u pe do pu sidju mi (to .i mi nelci <> ki'u <> noi mi pu pensi cusku toi) .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 03:06:51PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: > .yyy <> goi ko'a cu > simsa < goi ko'e .iku'i > milxe frica .i ko'a frica ko'e lo ka zoi gy emphasis gy .i pe'i simsa lo > frica be fa <> bei <> > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 3:00 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn <[1]rpglover64@gmail.com> > wrote: > > na xu se jetnu lo du'u < li'u>> <> dunli lo smuni > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:36 PM, .alyn.post. > <[2]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > .i o'onai ke'a si ko'a > > .i mi fanva lu ko xu li'u fu zoi .gy. "is it true that you will make > it true?" .gy. .a zoi .gy. "Can you make it true?" .gy. > > .i mi na jimpe lo nu cusku ko'a va'o lo selma'o be su'o zo fa to zoi > .fanva. I can't say my example sentence without using FA .fanva. toi > > .i ki'edo'u mi ca me lo jimpe poi do xusra > .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 01:59:21PM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > > doi .alan.post. > > > > ki'a ru'e .i na jimpe fi zo ko joi zo xu gi'e na jimpe fi lo mukti > do'e zo > > ke'a > > > > ni'o > > mi na pu cusku lo du'u va'o ro zo'e na pilno lo selma'o zo fa .i > ku'i > > cusku lo du'u va'o lo na'e sarcu ku na pilno > > > > (I'm not quite sure what you meant by using "ko" and "xu" together, > and > > I'm not sure why you used "ke'a" > > > > I didn't say never to use FA; I said that they shouldn't be used > when not > > necessary.) > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:37 PM, .alyn.post. > > <[1][3]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > > > > doi .arpis. > > > > .i ko xu ba cusku ke'a goi lu .i mi djica lo za'i ponse fa do lo > rokci > > li'u > > poi na pilno zo fa .i mi na jimpe lo cusku be ke'a > > .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. > > > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 12:01:05PM -0400, .arpis. wrote: > > > I'm biased, but I find the English structure to be more > understandable > > and > > > natural, and not only because I speak English. > > > > > > The selbri comes early in the sentence, allowing the listener to > start > > > understanding the relationships between the sumti before the > sentence > > is > > > finished, and FA tags, unlike case endings, have no intrinsic > meaning > > > apart from the selbri. > > > > > > Also, as I understand it, the FA tags are meant to provide the > > facility to > > > reorder sentences when it is convenient, e.g. {mi klama fu lo > karce}, > > not > > > to allow arbitrary re-orderings; that's what BAI can be for. A > > somewhat > > > contrived example: {kla la .suzyn. xekla lo karce tekla la > .berlin. > > sekla > > > la .paris. co'e} > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 11:36 AM, Joel T. > > <[1][2][4]joelofarabia@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. > If > > > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am > > > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier! > > > > > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed > because > > > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have > a > > > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of > current > > > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that > > > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not > > > just the vocabulary. > > > > > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In > > > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners > > ([2][3][5]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/ > > > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html), if I have > understood > > > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say > (and > > > therefore have to be able to understand): > > > > > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English > structure) > > > > > > and > > > > > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > > > structure) > > > > > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get > used > > > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. > At > > > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you > do it > > > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to > adapt > > > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > > > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! > > > > > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to > > > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is > why I > > > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban > > > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences > in > > > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which > > > requires conscious thought. > > > > > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I > > > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my > > > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all > > > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban! > > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen <[3][4][6]lukeaber...@gmail.com> > wrote: > > > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're missing at this early stage in > your > > > learning > > > > is that both FA *and* knowing the place structures are extremely > > > important > > > > if you want to be fluent. > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns. You agreed that I was representing > your > > > > argument accurately. What you may have misunderstood was that my > > last > > > > paragraph about "if one group of people liked the place > > structure.... > > > been > > > > dropped out of the language by this group)" was mildly > sarcastic. > > > > > > > > The idea of a group of people using lojban and simply > > > forgetting/dropping FA > > > > and/or the default place structure of the gismu is completely > > absurd. > > > It > > > > could happen, but it would take (my guess) centuries of shifting > for > > > that to > > > > happen. It's so fundamental to a proper understanding of the > > language > > > that > > > > if anyone dropped FA or began forgetting the place structures, I > > would > > > argue > > > > that it was darn-near a completely different language. > > > > > > > > I'd put it on par with English switching to a system more like > what > > > they > > > > have in Turkey (as you describe it). Such a thing would be (at > best) > > > an > > > > extremely bastardized version of English. Likewise, lojban > without > > FA > > > would > > > > be quite a stretch. > > > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. > > <[4][5][7]joelofara...@gmail.com> > > > wrote: > > > > > That was my point exactly. True fluency means completely > > > internalizing > > > > > a language so that the words just flow out of your mouth > without > > > > > thinking. You're completely "out of the book" to use a chess > > > > > expression. And a community of truly fluent people would be > > > influenced > > > > > more by each other than any conscious thought given to the > > official > > > > > rules of grammar. A true Sapir-Whorf test would demand nothing > > less. > > > > > > > > > The point I'm making about running two systems side-by-side is > > that > > > in > > > > > any community of truly fluent people, either one of them would > get > > > > > phased out, or they would diverge in meaning, usage, > connotation > > > etc. > > > > > At the very least it would become a way of differentiating > between > > > > > cliques, which is the thin end of the wedge for > dialectisation. > > You > > > > > just can't have two ways of doing exactly the same thing with > only > > > > > whim to choose between them. It's great in class, but in the > field > > > > > it's not tenable. It's not how language works. > > > > > > > > > On Apr 4, 10:04 pm, Luke Bergen > <[5][6][8]lukeaber...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > I think his point was that these dialectic splits could > result > > in > > > two > > > > > groups > > > > > > of people not being able to understand one another. > > > > > > > > > > If one group of people liked using the place structure so > much > > > that they > > > > > > just ignored FA what would happen if they saw something like > {fi > > > lo zdani > > > > > cu > > > > > > klama fa mi lo zarci} and got completely confused (you know, > cuz > > > > > generations > > > > > > later FA would have basically been dropped out of the > language > > by > > > this > > > > > > group). > > > > > > > > > > On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Michael Turniansky < > > > > > [6][7][9]mturnian...@gmail.com>wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 8:08 PM, Joel T. > > > <[7][8][10]joelofara...@gmail.com> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >> In any case, surely running two systems side-by-side is > > asking > > > for > > > > > > >> dialectisation (is that a word?), where speakers in one > area > > > get used > > > > > > >> to one system while speakers in another prefer the other? > > > > > > > > > > > It can, and does. But we consider the flexibility to be a > > plus. > > > > > That > > > > > > > way, any person coming from a natural language background > of > > > say, > > > > > Turkish, > > > > > > > can from sentences the way that seems most natural to > them, > > > while > > > > > someone > > > > > > > coming from an English background can form setnences the > most > > > natural > > > > > way to > > > > > > > them. And both will be understood equally well. We had, > for > > > example, > > > > > a > > > > > > > while a back, a discussion over which was "better": to use > > "cu" > > > often, > > > > > or to > > > > > > > totally eschew it in favor of sumti that are competely > > > terminated so > > > > > that > > > > > > > there was no need for it (i.e. "lo gerku cu barda" vs. "lo > > gerku > > > ku > > > > > > > barda"). There are vocal proponents on each side, so it > > amounts > > > to a > > > > > > > dialectical split, but.. so what? > > > > > > > --gejyspa > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to > the > > > Google > > > > > Groups > > > > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [8][9][11]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > > > [9][10][12]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > > >[10][11][13]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google > > > Groups > > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [11][12][14]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [12][13][15]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > >[13][14][16]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to > [14][15][17]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [15][16][18]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [16][17][19]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > -- > > > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to > [18][20]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [19][21]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > [20][22]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > > > References > > > > > > Visible links > > > 1. mailto:[21][23]joelofarabia@gmail.com > > > 2. > > > [22][24]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html > > > 3. mailto:[23][25]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > > 4. mailto:[24][26]joelofara...@gmail.com > > > 5. mailto:[25][27]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > > 6. mailto:[26][28]mturnian...@gmail.com > > > 7. mailto:[27][29]joelofara...@gmail.com > > > 8. mailto:[28][30]lojban@googlegroups.com > > > 9. mailto:[29][31]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > 10. [30][32]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > > 11. mailto:[31][33]lojban@googlegroups.com > > > 12. mailto:[32][34]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > 13. [33][35]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > > 14. mailto:[34][36]lojban@googlegroups.com > > > 15. mailto:[35][37]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > > 16. [36][38]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > -- > > .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to > [37][39]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [38][40]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > [39][41]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > Alex R > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [42]lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [43]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > > [44]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > References > > > > Visible links > > 1. mailto:[45]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > > 2. mailto:[46]joelofarabia@gmail.com > > 3. [47]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/ > > 4. mailto:[48]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > 5. mailto:[49]joelofara...@gmail.com > > 6. mailto:[50]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > 7. mailto:[51]mturnian...@gmail.com > > 8. mailto:[52]joelofara...@gmail.com > > 9. mailto:[53]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 10. mailto:[54]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 11. [55]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 12. mailto:[56]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 13. mailto:[57]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 14. [58]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 15. mailto:[59]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 16. mailto:[60]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 17. [61]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 18. mailto:[62]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 19. mailto:[63]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 20. [64]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 21. mailto:[65]joelofarabia@gmail.com > > 22. > [66]http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html > > 23. mailto:[67]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > 24. mailto:[68]joelofara...@gmail.com > > 25. mailto:[69]lukeaber...@gmail.com > > 26. mailto:[70]mturnian...@gmail.com > > 27. mailto:[71]joelofara...@gmail.com > > 28. mailto:[72]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 29. mailto:[73]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 30. [74]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 31. mailto:[75]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 32. mailto:[76]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 33. [77]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 34. mailto:[78]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 35. mailto:[79]lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 36. [80]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > > 37. mailto:[81]lojban@googlegroups.com > > 38. mailto:[82]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > > 39. [83]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > -- > .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to [84]lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [85]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > [86]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > Alex R > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to [87]lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [88]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > [89]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > References > > Visible links > 1. mailto:rpglover64@gmail.com > 2. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 3. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org > 4. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com > 5. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/ > 6. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 7. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 8. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 9. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com > 10. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 11. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 12. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 13. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 14. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 15. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 16. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 17. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 18. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 19. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 20. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 21. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 22. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 23. mailto:joelofarabia@gmail.com > 24. http://www.tlg.uci.edu/%7Eopoudjis/%0Alojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html > 25. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 26. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 27. mailto:lukeaber...@gmail.com > 28. mailto:mturnian...@gmail.com > 29. mailto:joelofara...@gmail.com > 30. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 31. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 32. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 33. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 34. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 35. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 36. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 37. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 38. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 39. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 40. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com > 41. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en > 42. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com > 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