From lojban+bncCOWVnJObDhDI3e3sBBoEinu2FQ@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 12:35:02 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q7C1f-0003oF-4x; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:35:01 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf727676qwh.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:34:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip :references:user-agent:x-http-via:x-http-useragent:message-id :subject:from:to:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bNtI5UfyDPTDRXJ8BsyERHfxdjO6Ii+I+Dpgn/FOfwo=; b=fZkb5bLwd1gumcHx99RRoPBauvZeCpl6mxwbkc1o8PzlmLRPlQwIoli/zQCAOm0x+k WkwkD6jCXop5pwclRFBE0PxKZCEDu02WqII00mLfuecN7cV0oliMIik7QtyKq3Jj/Vev 3not+RLMqi8wz2e8nesy/g90+DktXI29STklg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:mime-version:date:in-reply-to:x-ip:references :user-agent:x-http-via:x-http-useragent:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=Rt93Xf3xfLLcz2OXPo8meYerXRH3uw3rcfpkJpGGW+VjrVHZAPWLMkLIlsimgBBFUr ae1GfpgI1kt4w1P1ZzKmJeS1ZsgjCc8YC7Rx7BMETWnoY9DRaDemgLBqbTMSrsJzja+V yCS6n2YLiDhTbUBKEPVMTe8dgOlS6XWXrTdao= Received: by 10.224.197.7 with SMTP id ei7mr5318qab.19.1302032072210; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:34:32 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.217.73 with SMTP id hl9ls24230qab.1.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:34:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.178.141 with SMTP id bm13mr5084qab.41.1302032071726; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by hg8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:34:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 12:34:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-IP: 88.250.85.74 References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <95aef4de-a5f4-4747-bdb5-58d5b71295af@dn9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> User-Agent: G2/1.0 X-HTTP-Via: 1.1 bsna.tur.wtbts.net:3128 (squid/2.7.STABLE7), 1.0 bsna.tur.wtbts.net:3128 (squid/2.7.STABLE7) X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.0; en-GB; rv:1.9.2.16) Gecko/20110319 Firefox/3.6.16 ( .NET CLR 3.5.30729),gzip(gfe) Message-ID: <1de2c35e-05be-4f65-b28a-39b5506a7f1e@hg8g2000vbb.googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? From: "Joel T." To: lojban X-Original-Sender: joelofarabia@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Super. Thanks! On Apr 5, 9:29=A0pm, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > SE is the name used to refer to the selma'o (grammatical class/family) wh= ich > includes the words {se}, {te}, {ve}, and {xe}. You can read about it here= http://dag.github.com/cll/9/4/ > > BAI is the name for the selma'o that includes many words that add meaning= to > bridi, much like prepositions in English, but more precise and more varie= d. > You can read about it herehttp://dag.github.com/cll/9/6/and see a complet= e > list herehttp://dag.github.com/cll/9/17/ > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Joel T. wrote: > > OK I'm not having a whole lot of joy with Google, so what are BAI and > > SE? > > > On Apr 5, 8:41 pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > > > That makes more sense. =A0I would think that communication would be v= ery > > > difficult indeed if Turkish did {mi do lo zdani la mil.rod lo karce c= u > > > klama} =A0(in english: I to you from the house along mill road in the= car > > do > > > come) (only english adds even more information than the lojban becaus= e of > > > the necessary "to", "from", "along", etc...). =A0Using BAI like tags = would > > at > > > least make the previous sentence a bit easier to keep up with. > > > > Joel, jumping around like that with FA (like in the L4B example) is > > > certainly not the norm. =A0It's just an existing technique that by vi= rtue > > of > > > other constructs in the language, will always be possible to do. =A0I= t has > > a > > > similar flavor to me as an english statement like "I to you do come" = or > > "I > > > do thee wed". =A0It sounds kind of funny and some people might have s= ome > > > trouble grasping what's being said... but it's still valid english an= d > > most > > > people probably will get it... it just kind of sounds funny. > > > > For purposes of emphasis, we usually use SE to swap places. > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Jonathan Jones > > wrote: > > > > FA merely marks which place in the defined place structure if being > > filled > > > > by the following sumti. {fa} always marks the x1 of the bridi. You = have > > to > > > > know the place structure of the selbri in order to know what relati= on > > is > > > > bring applied to the sumti following FA. I don't know Turkish, but = I > > believe > > > > that language's tags are more like our BAI. > > > > > to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi > > > > mu'o mi'e.aionys. > > > > > On Apr 5, 2011 9:36 AM, "Joel T." wrote: > > > > > OK, fair enough. I hope my comments didn't seem overly dogmatic. If > > > > indeed as you say all these elements are indispensable then I am > > > > wrong, and as I said in my original post, I couldn't be happier! > > > > > In that case it would be like me saying that English is flawed beca= use > > > > you can remove all the words of French origin and you'd still have = a > > > > complete language. The premise is correct, but the inertia of curre= nt > > > > usage means that this will never happen. I just never thought that > > > > such variety could be present in the grammar of a language and not > > > > just the vocabulary. > > > > > I suppose I should have really started by giving an example. In > > > > Chapter 2 of Lojban for Beginners (http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis= / > > > > lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changeplaces.html< > >http://www.tlg.uci.edu/~opoudjis/lojbanbrochure/lessons/less2changepl.. > > .>), > > > > if I have understood > > > > correctly it basically tells me that if I feel like it I can say (a= nd > > > > therefore have to be able to understand): > > > > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structu= re) > > > > > and > > > > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > > > > structure) > > > > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get u= sed > > > > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. = At > > > > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do= it > > > > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to ad= apt > > > > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > > > > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! > > > > > Everything I know about language tells me that people get used to > > > > expressing themselves according to specific structures. Which is wh= y I > > > > arrived at the conclusion that any population of fluent Lojban > > > > speakers would very quickly get used to ordering certain sentences = in > > > > certain ways instead of constantly mixing up their grammar, which > > > > requires conscious thought. > > > > > Again, please do correct me if I'm wrong, and I get the feeling I > > > > probably am. I would like to thank everybody who has replied to my > > > > original post for taking it in the spirit intended. You have all > > > > encouraged me to take a closer look at Lojban! > > > > > On Apr 5, 5:22 pm, Luke Bergen wrote: > > > > > Yeah Joel, I think what you're miss... > > > > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:17 AM, Joel T. > > wrote: > > > > =A0> > That was my point exac... > > > > > =A0-- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > > "lojban" group. > > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps > > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > >http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Alex R --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.