From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARC0p-_sBBoEFZIxJg@googlegroups.com Tue Apr 05 19:45:27 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q7IkD-0006g0-EN; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 19:45:26 -0700 Received: by yie19 with SMTP id 19sf1914499yie.16 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 19:45:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=f/gTsLB5JjAXe6/2pJIli2ntcHOUDCFSz1FgEaHA15M=; b=HLp65M3njOVO6VpDGkAT0FArSzuFlAYxYB6aHTsIWVrY4na+uOVBqY+rBupEidCRY4 0CtW8+rO42E5+areE+7RcKb4+NQHb3OTLog6okkTyq5QaasRt8qz337k5K+3kUGeUWx6 6z83vrb9zKODEXZdVam0vto5ykrDliQEY1M5M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=SolXQKDnDPBgvlZtjrdrWz35B7DgqECBfP/JOYSb/ycYwRy8N8Y6TwB8nFxY8bzTCk 1BGXUTMNCcAdgFNtBK9QnKAAPXEp6DC3S5771xUJLOOCpI1vlelz2+8zq7+y1WWgbOw/ +bzujncKwaiy1VjlJb9Y5FciYl5QJ1neGBdMY= Received: by 10.91.77.15 with SMTP id e15mr222234agl.17.1302057908624; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 19:45:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.1.79 with SMTP id 15ls563964ibe.0.p; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 19:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.55.14 with SMTP id vw14mr67410icb.76.1302057907788; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 19:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.43.55.14 with SMTP id vw14mr67409icb.76.1302057907759; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 19:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f177.google.com (mail-iw0-f177.google.com [209.85.214.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id xk8si6710icb.1.2011.04.05.19.45.07 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 05 Apr 2011 19:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.177; Received: by iwn36 with SMTP id 36so1235758iwn.8 for ; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 19:45:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.43.62.10 with SMTP id wy10mr743783icb.37.1302057907311; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 19:45:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.218.73 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 19:45:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201104051201.59228.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <201104051201.59228.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Tue, 5 Apr 2011 22:45:07 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51f972d0ad65b04a036fbb3 --bcaec51f972d0ad65b04a036fbb3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable fi ... fe is probably pretty tame too. Something like {mi broda fi do fe lo nu brode}; there are gismu with place structures similar to that {broda}. (Alternately, we could just have a SE to swap xm and xn in general; as it stands I absolutely do not think that {te se} and {se te} are adequate solutions.) mu'o mi'e .latros. On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Tuesday 05 April 2011 11:36:04 Joel T. wrote: > > la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English structure) > > > > and > > > > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > > structure) > > > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used > > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At > > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it > > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt > > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! > > The Turkish order above I find highly marked, and with three sumti places > marked with FA I don't know what's supposed to be emphasized. I think "la > suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. fu le karce" and "la suzyn. la paris. l= a > berlin. fu le karce cu klama" are both unmarked. The version with "zo'e" > calls a slight attention to the non-statement of the route. In the absenc= e > of > skipped places, conjunctions which have to have the same sumti in the sam= e > place of two different selbri, and attempts to mimic foreign word order o= r > fit scansion, I think a normal limit is one SE on the selbri and one sumt= i > marked with FA. > > Pierre > -- > When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates. > J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --bcaec51f972d0ad65b04a036fbb3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable fi ... fe is probably pretty tame too. Something like {mi broda fi do fe lo= nu brode}; there are gismu with place structures similar to that {broda}. = (Alternately, we could just have a SE to swap xm and xn in general; as it s= tands I absolutely do not think that {te se} and {se te} are adequate solut= ions.)

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Tue, Ap= r 5, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
On Tuesday 05 April 2011 11:36:04 Joel T. wrote:
> la suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. zo'e le karce (English struct= ure)
>
> and
>
> la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish
> structure)
>
> You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used=
> to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At<= br> > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it=
> for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt=
> mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence
> structures on a whim! My brain would flip!

The Turkish order above I find highly marked, and with three sumti pl= aces
marked with FA I don't know what's supposed to be emphasized. I thi= nk "la
suzyn. klama la paris. la berlin. fu le karce" and "la suzyn. la = paris. la
berlin. fu le karce cu klama" are both unmarked. The version with &quo= t;zo'e"
calls a slight attention to the non-statement of the route. In the absence = of
skipped places, conjunctions which have to have the same sumti in the same<= br> place of two different selbri, and attempts to mimic foreign word order or<= br> fit scansion, I think a normal limit is one SE on the selbri and one sumti<= br> marked with FA.

Pierre
--
When a barnacle settles down, its brain disintegrates.
J=E1 n=E3o percebe nada, j=E1 n=E3o percebe nada.

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