From lojban+bncCI34ib7wGxC0lf3sBBoE-C4KDg@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 08 10:49:57 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q8Fof-0005OX-DT; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:49:57 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf3546291wya.16 for ; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:49:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:date:from :to:subject:in-reply-to:references:message-id:x-sender:user-agent :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=H4ssS5YLOl8J93TFDIqj2vAkDRQnepqSq+lsC8ZTvxQ=; b=gigYdKd68zXwrnn1DCt84H7fV3cEWeDXk8UnTfKydlfC3GdRocLhG9mzUaD6FELxlj B+8YKQatFa11PledqcoEmo2D8QrQJpah6busoHJSqCEzLOuMnzSAjxbQ2r7XKGhF4ezb Wgqa2bMgIsQ1yBaxNt51QgnlPzlPBr8Pinwo0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:date:from:to:subject :in-reply-to:references:message-id:x-sender:user-agent :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=t3GjqqEu2qREKbflVpkS7WBs0NabNRq9FFcp1ImoiHyL89KF8z6yJ8rByIMicWFcdR lO1xamYuh64FwTG3KF95M2hBwxFKAjtN55YXbuuVLHrf92iJFZGyhsBqvU578ki2DzXT iDENTMFQKALkhLTpurc+QZmVNRGMCtqkVRvGc= Received: by 10.216.29.201 with SMTP id i51mr4267wea.6.1302284980757; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:49:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.130.31 with SMTP id q31ls1376267wbs.1.p; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.6.10 with SMTP id x10mr627wes.2.1302284979395; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 10:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.190.140 with SMTP id e12mswen; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 13:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.29.144 with SMTP id q16mr8903wbc.13.1302036507160; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 13:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.29.144 with SMTP id q16mr8902wbc.13.1302036507060; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 13:48:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.twey.co.uk (twey.co.uk [178.79.141.153]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id g17si1824419wbe.3.2011.04.05.13.48.25; Tue, 05 Apr 2011 13:48:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of twey@twey.co.uk designates 178.79.141.153 as permitted sender) client-ip=178.79.141.153; Received: from mail.twey.co.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.twey.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CC0540A3C for ; Tue, 5 Apr 2011 20:48:25 +0000 (UTC) MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 21:48:25 +0100 From: James 'Twey' Kay To: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? In-Reply-To: References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <637d0745ed534b12dfc5867e00c83107@mail.twey.co.uk> X-Sender: twey@twey.co.uk User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/0.5.1 X-Original-Sender: twey@twey.co.uk X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of twey@twey.co.uk designates 178.79.141.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=twey@twey.co.uk Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-2; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish > structure) > > You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get=20 > used > to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At > least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do=20 > it > for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to=20 > adapt > mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence > structures on a whim! My brain would flip! As a native speaker of English, I'd like to chip in to say that I find=20 the Japanese structure, which is similar to the Turkish (la .suzyn. fu=20 le karce fi la .berlin. fe la .paris. klama), to be much more natural=20 and flow much easier than the English. I don't know how it goes in=20 Turkish, but people in free-order languages often mix up the order of=20 their sentences, for emphasis or other reasons: the Romans didn't seem=20 to have any trouble, and the word order of writings in Latin is all over= =20 the place. That said, the use of a limited set of cases for semantic r=F4les instead= =20 of arbitrary place tags is not a new idea either; I suggest you take a=20 look at Il=E1k=B9 ()= =20 which tries (though fails, in my opinion) to do just this. -- Twey --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.