From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCpyf3sBBoE0f61ag@googlegroups.com Fri Apr 08 12:40:52 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q8HXq-0003pc-Fl; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:40:51 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf3041177fxm.16 for ; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:40:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=v1GNryxtm7RGPQz1klky25yi5YUoLupuY5hvF0Rwa8M=; b=pQL2u4HOsdQvRNK3d4nUIO/6HIeQJfiptHueXNSS877Q98pVJ5HLhbgzBClI7Finma UijKrmmbl+wtuG3C2lEskt3hY6o4N4XAxrxxGMca29wlBW2bbfl5MJM1C01AxHocDhjD OgJ9OHtKR9deGMKvg/vKDWbManQ8UEPNjnLWg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=mYhlTCiMBgVPRiyB97bKv28jrMRCy5GpMO54VTLabkpF/0nhRlkcvgmXmU4Pwoggpc xAefkvEwdBuZ09/muP/DxLW/SOsGDRtMtm0IrtL5GL9nxaz9ifkB0lEr1YTeRdg1Vf7r sl3M0/3+hJcRcsK+khHMYgE5yDRcffshMNwGA= Received: by 10.223.116.135 with SMTP id m7mr575888faq.27.1302291625901; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:40:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.78.193 with SMTP id m1ls581153fak.0.p; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.17.82 with SMTP id r18mr380041faa.27.1302291624807; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.17.82 with SMTP id r18mr380040faa.27.1302291624780; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f52.google.com (mail-bw0-f52.google.com [209.85.214.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z10si285980fam.11.2011.04.08.12.40.24 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.52; Received: by mail-bw0-f52.google.com with SMTP id 24so2974663bwj.25 for ; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:40:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.15.139 with SMTP id k11mr2312808bka.49.1302291623331; Fri, 08 Apr 2011 12:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.116.147 with HTTP; Fri, 8 Apr 2011 12:40:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <637d0745ed534b12dfc5867e00c83107@mail.twey.co.uk> References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <637d0745ed534b12dfc5867e00c83107@mail.twey.co.uk> Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 13:40:23 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00032555a2229a47f504a06d6535 --00032555a2229a47f504a06d6535 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/4/5 James 'Twey' Kay > la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish >> structure) >> >> You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used >> to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At >> least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it >> for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt >> mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence >> structures on a whim! My brain would flip! >> > > As a native speaker of English, I'd like to chip in to say that I find th= e > Japanese structure, which is similar to the Turkish (la .suzyn. fu le kar= ce > fi la .berlin. fe la .paris. klama), to be much more natural and flow muc= h > easier than the English. I don't know how it goes in Turkish, but people= in > free-order languages often mix up the order of their sentences, for empha= sis > or other reasons: the Romans didn't seem to have any trouble, and the wor= d > order of writings in Latin is all over the place. > > That said, the use of a limited set of cases for semantic r=C3=B4les inst= ead of > arbitrary place tags is not a new idea either; I suggest you take a look = at > Il=C3=A1k=C5=A1 () w= hich tries > (though fails, in my opinion) to do just this. > > -- Twey > Broken link alert. > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu d= o zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00032555a2229a47f504a06d6535 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

2011/4/5 James 'Twey' Kay <twey@twey.co.uk><= /span>
la suzyn. fu le karce fi la berlin. fe la paris. klama (Turkish
structure)

You can imagine how hard it is for native English speakers to get used
to Turkish sentence structure, in fact my parents never quite did. At
least in Turkish when you change the structure of a sentence you do it
for a reason, like emphasis. But Lojban expects me to be able to adapt
mid-paragraph for somebody who uses any and all possible sentence
structures on a whim! My brain would flip!

As a native speaker of English, I'd like to chip in to say that I find = the Japanese structure, which is similar to the Turkish (la .suzyn. fu le k= arce fi la .berlin. fe la .paris. klama), to be much more natural and flow = much easier than the English. =C2=A0I don't know how it goes in Turkish= , but people in free-order languages often mix up the order of their senten= ces, for emphasis or other reasons: the Romans didn't seem to have any = trouble, and the word order of writings in Latin is all over the place.

That said, the use of a limited set of cases for semantic r=C3=B4les instea= d of arbitrary place tags is not a new idea either; I suggest you take a lo= ok at Il=C3=A1k=C5=A1 (<URL:http://www.ithkuil.net/Ilaksh/Ilaksh_intr= o.html>) which tries (though fails, in my opinion) to do just this.<= br>
=C2=A0-- Twey

Broken link alert.
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border= -left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"> --
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.a'o.e'e ko cmima le bende pe lo pilno be = denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I= am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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