From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDipoLtBBoEPDVQtg@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 09 10:12:20 2011 Received: from mail-ey0-f189.google.com ([209.85.215.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q8bho-0006Kn-UJ; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:12:20 -0700 Received: by eyf18 with SMTP id 18sf123442eyf.16 for ; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:12:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=IQrR8F6ZOb8n6DyKvgHnU5hxYHkD9wBpNE9bYLJZw64=; b=UbpaCnEEgND2oRng3/P4fn0x8XlVrxmzgigqWxdigOxPQF5+l4P0zZ41fe0zxDddyj 3wTQsrxL3dlQhr4/pg66KwzFXSy32VptTmRXKJPzWKvdNxvcFp86iu8+bBkDLdZ0W3Yf 3gh4jNfV+KnNk61I9bfPKN2wHDgjD15ROi4iM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Xj/Jw7BLH67wcyG56BaQh6px9Ou4DucFvZc9Fw2rNfhQQZBeXsIySuAv1O22zdxMIH LL4aTg49q0FMo7MvMZQZfjPJhf/umWMQ/YWLyfPtmJBITLicjOW9JdLtcFaYkHCDXQrF yngt8dTUl7REV/KtvWeQBTyqgvkir1Yv3SwUM= Received: by 10.213.2.65 with SMTP id 1mr543987ebi.0.1302369122777; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:12:02 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.36.158 with SMTP id w30ls373927eea.3.p; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.21.66 with SMTP id q42mr299846eeq.45.1302369121647; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.21.66 with SMTP id q42mr299845eeq.45.1302369121626; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ew0-f46.google.com (mail-ew0-f46.google.com [209.85.215.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w60si1243261eew.2.2011.04.09.10.12.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.46; Received: by ewy4 with SMTP id 4so1625221ewy.5 for ; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.213.108.144 with SMTP id f16mr371190ebp.136.1302369121276; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.213.33.75 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Apr 2011 10:11:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <637d0745ed534b12dfc5867e00c83107@mail.twey.co.uk> <201104082010.50455.phma@phma.optus.nu> From: Luke Bergen Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 13:11:41 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd1fbbed7164404a07f704f --000e0cd1fbbed7164404a07f704f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weird. I know the "o" is screwy but I say the "o" in "knot" more like lojban "a". And actually when I record myself speaking lojban I find the "o" of "do" sounds shorter than when I say "boat" in english. "boat" was probably not a good example. I'm confused about the difference between the schwa ("a" in "a dog") and th= e "u" in "rut". I hear those two as the same I think. On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Ivo Doko wrote: > On 9 April 2011 07:47, Luke Bergen wrote: > > o -> the "oa" in english "boat" > > y -> the "u" in english "butter", "nut", "cut", "rut", "gutter", and th= e > "o" > > in "mother" and "love". > > As far as I've been able to gather, all of your pronunciations except > for these two are "proper". However, as Jonathan says lojban is very > permissive so I doubt anyone would misunderstand you especially since > lojban doesn't feature {ou} as a diphthong so pronouncing {o} as [o=CA=8A= ] > (which is what you do) instead of [o], [=C9=94] or [=C9=92] wouldn't crea= te any > ambiguity. > > FYI, a more "proper" pronunciation of {o} would be like "ou" in "four" > or like "o" in "knot" and British English "lot" and "not" ([l=C9=92t] and > [n=C9=92t], as opposed to US English [l=C9=91t] and [n=C9=91t]). > > As for {y}, that one should be [=C9=99], also known as schwa. In English > that's the common unstressed pronunciation of the indefinite article > "a" (as in "a dog") and is also featured in the unstressed > pronunciation of the definite article "the" (which is pronounced [=C3=B0= =C9=99], > unless when in front of a word which starts with a vowel in which case > it is more commonly pronounced [=C3=B0i] or [=C3=B0i=CB=90] as in "the ex= ample"). > Examples of it also include "a" in "general" and both "a"s in > "American". It is also the sound you make when you're thinking of what > to say next in a conversation (commonly transcribed as "uh..."). > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --000e0cd1fbbed7164404a07f704f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Weird. =C2=A0I know the "o" is screwy but I say the "o"= in "knot" more like lojban "a". =C2=A0And actually whe= n I record myself speaking lojban I find the "o" of "do"= ; sounds shorter than when I say "boat" in english. =C2=A0"b= oat" was probably not a good example.

I'm confused about the difference between the schwa (&qu= ot;a" in "a dog") and the "u" in "rut". = =C2=A0I hear those two as the same I think.

On Sat, Apr 9, 2011 at 10:57 AM, Ivo Doko <ivo.doko@gmail.com> wrote:
On 9 April 2011 07:47, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> o -> the "oa" in english "boat"
> y -> the "u" in english "but= ter", "nut", "cut", "rut", "gutter&= quot;, and the "o"
> in "mother" and "love".

As far as I've been able to gather, all of your pronunciations ex= cept
for these two are "proper". However, as Jonathan says lojban is v= ery
permissive so I doubt anyone would misunderstand you especially since
lojban doesn't feature {ou} as a diphthong so pronouncing {o} as [o=CA= =8A]
(which is what you do) instead of [o], [=C9=94] or [=C9=92] wouldn't cr= eate any
ambiguity.

FYI, a more "proper" pronunciation of {o} would be like "ou&= quot; in "four"
or like "o" in "knot" and British English "lot&quo= t; and "not" ([l=C9=92t] and
[n=C9=92t], as opposed to US English [l=C9=91t] and [n=C9=91t]).

As for {y}, that one should be [=C9=99], also known as schwa. In English that's the common unstressed pronunciation of the indefinite article "a" (as in "a dog") and is also featured in the unstres= sed
pronunciation of the definite article "the" (which is pronounced = [=C3=B0=C9=99],
unless when in front of a word which starts with a vowel in which case
it is more commonly pronounced [=C3=B0i] or [=C3=B0i=CB=90] as in "the= example").
Examples of it also include "a" in "general" and both &= quot;a"s in
"American". It is also the sound you make when you're thinkin= g of what
to say next in a conversation (commonly transcribed as "uh...").<= br>
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


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