From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC57ILtBBoEqBK9Zg@googlegroups.com Sat Apr 09 12:40:59 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Q8e1d-0003Xr-FZ; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:40:58 -0700 Received: by gyf1 with SMTP id 1sf8389541gyf.16 for ; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:40:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=iLMkj9OALc9lt9NwPV1yLm4AKv23CE+WRG+rLNm7dGE=; b=D3/TUiFU/0DsPCOjzSwj7Mp9mgrB7+NKN53C/dDEaV/pMBASWgKBmc+qumpPi/nx4J F/9rTK+K9zqmbzYXSGtYsJKx12TaMPfZjTbUo9qnLA7KaQ+dP8miFmjPw1VUcblFxv0D IxMY0U93Cc+d+p6ythciMidJjObZsXq3j3ilY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=u15cTMVGzKxyThlMJmBfCJ0+tAlFiFT2XnpZBne7U45Zj9HP8uhpdD0zUvwCR3aY3I z96h5y3x2QzSyTOsZiVKwtZZSe0fX74uC/V+SxxsnvPcV14sqW62SJJLb7kVDepLFsV+ mCkZk938y6YkhxCZFXFc9opAeoj6q+6hqJT7c= Received: by 10.150.251.11 with SMTP id y11mr676694ybh.42.1302378041075; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:40:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.131.8 with SMTP id e8ls3593141ybd.5.p; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.78.234 with SMTP id g70mr810181yhe.87.1302378040175; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.78.234 with SMTP id g70mr810180yhe.87.1302378040161; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm23.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm23.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.88]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id l19si865425ybn.7.2011.04.09.12.40.39; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.88 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.88; Received: from [66.94.237.193] by nm23.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Apr 2011 19:40:38 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.124] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Apr 2011 19:40:38 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1029.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Apr 2011 19:40:38 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 876830.42170.bm@omp1029.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 95994 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Apr 2011 19:40:38 -0000 Message-ID: <501670.94789.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: aTSmZ9AVM1lkxSrH1YDB2f0z1DfdMR1Sepof8Az1wTOWiRN mN0b9BZFAZgfV1bsLy3kULLfdGouFVjKcxFp0ODtYl0M21VNJKqwQCbpCa0X XLaTSxxfetuHPgs_ivpRfVEy_oa4Q0Wy_WWLTrbJetNr4WHTqvQwCx4w.vLK BOvLrq0KTMAxK_9XZRO6LKi0JxbBd4oE0F1UX975bQmPsAvggx2z4ycoT5tE qCGnKeiWFgH2i77jbIm07yT.Op0wFDRC2GKwJDIty7p.0oCFB6n_f98UtT0r BPpLDT_oZQaOHmYxO.3nS0_GH0rGRg.MgggUjcSWmVrxvchmoVYfAPNW0mIP .9nt2vMKyoUK2duV915_hNYyKTS2n_K0fyibTFr4r9bJVf52nlZgaMenhtko eBuKdFgmoXfZ.MQ-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:40:38 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.109.295617 References: <0a74da06-07cf-4b52-a329-ed0ebbae2f5b@u8g2000yqh.googlegroups.com> <637d0745ed534b12dfc5867e00c83107@mail.twey.co.uk> <201104082010.50455.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 12:40:38 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.88 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 A lot of this phonetic hair-splitting is pretty much beside the point. As people keep noting, Lojban is fairly easy about vowels (and consonants, too), so the microdifferences between the various mid central unrounded vowels scarcely matters, so long as what you use is well away from a, e and o. So much also for "proper" pronunciation. The difference between the stressed and unstressed vowels in"butter" in (my, for example) English. has been argued since I was an undergrad -- the first experiment I did with a sound spectrograph (and one of the early ones of those at that) was on that question, with indeterminate results: the ranges on several runs overlapped and the deviance could be accounted for by the -r (the guy on the "same" side said). The crucial problems seem to be to keep o and a from sliding together as the "aw" o and "father" a have done in almost all American dialect. though some in one way, some the other. So urging the higher o, of "bone" and the like, for all that it is a diphthong, seems the wiser course. Happily, Lojban does not have (and would not accept, I think) the lower fronter bleating a, which around here gets mixed with e, which gets mixed with lower i: if my wife says "pan" (to my ears), I never know whether she is after a pan or a pen or a pin. The latter is more common, so again, using the i of "fine", a diphthong, helps prevent that problem in Lojban in the Ozarks. Two other comments: never use the -r context for anything, what happens to vowels before any r is ultimately describable, I suppose, but is surely not easy -- and varies across dialects along with the rs. Second, don't use "root" as an example, unless you've narrowed your pattern speech down to a couple of blocks. I myself say it two different ways (for exactly the same word: "root" alone and in "rootbeer") and most other people have a couple, sometimes a very different couple, of pronunciations -- and we haven't even gotten to Minnesota and Canada, yet. ----- Original Message ---- From: Ivo Doko To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, April 9, 2011 1:31:11 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: I love Lojban's approach, but what's the deal with place tags? On 9 April 2011 19:30, Luke Bergen wrote: > Haha, no, I meant the lojban word "do" not the english word "do" :) Oh, okay then. :) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.