From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC6xPrtBBoEn7FyiQ@googlegroups.com Mon May 02 05:23:37 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QGsA0-0005Vw-LX; Mon, 02 May 2011 05:23:36 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf3622168gxk.16 for ; Mon, 02 May 2011 05:23:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=/y25aowdVCUL9DjNAdOsWFxzdMGF5kOmVmR3p4w+P/0=; b=U1DZkj1IPAuYTsmDuymG4qm/nXwvUZJJzk6Yq39b9U+3lCt8uTxpADSX3+fXj+wE9T HH6yniCLjOs9hxzi+8NfqvUBSHLHhvYZ/j2m2TlpeAKFXj+KBA6jB+q/wvh6tnhSfm/E kofaekEXQOTp5brF8n81vNCv467AYxrAXjd6I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=IRoOmw9eDu2am6GzhbGHMvUnT2FKZ83E1rIpPVBC+Y2U/nFks8CU1VQEzeK6iR9lv1 8J6qd4NT9vN7zDYFJkEiD5nCGFTv2re09zcuITjWTbk5hKq5I8iWFeSBYkr0jWzEnxu1 p92P9hxcM9FxDvXmHhvBlexoipKbji3kss8uo= Received: by 10.150.69.5 with SMTP id r5mr1083264yba.15.1304339002930; Mon, 02 May 2011 05:23:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.44.22 with SMTP id r22ls3196230ybr.2.gmail; Mon, 02 May 2011 05:23:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.72.37 with SMTP id u37mr1032479yba.25.1304339001980; Mon, 02 May 2011 05:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.150.72.37 with SMTP id u37mr1032477yba.25.1304339001953; Mon, 02 May 2011 05:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.212]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id v10si1100946yba.0.2011.05.02.05.23.20; Mon, 02 May 2011 05:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.212 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.212; Received: from [66.94.237.193] by nm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 May 2011 12:23:20 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.102] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 May 2011 12:23:20 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1007.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 May 2011 12:23:20 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 534772.31444.bm@omp1007.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 77225 invoked by uid 60001); 2 May 2011 12:23:20 -0000 Message-ID: <390367.44013.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: DssH1wkVM1kUP1eOlM9I2d_kdfVFCn0Astfv0gyxLg9OmHy EHcDjSw5rTaKcdUumaHzbz1a5FDWskdZ.Dc2XBSrIhIYaN7O8glvZLEd5..u ruyeskr9lbGJdDV90LAnGzlcTE5dcKORK0Ij_X0.fs60uhaWFJPe4PIOQyIO 8GPp8rhmXIOoJNTsGjUTSb7DuMtp5zHOpmbQIapbBqQJBZItU3NfSBLUZLNJ GcaxrG5oUhq5bF7TEy3NOSGQfe6bzXgv4iOX1V.F81YrkSfDLuvY_DHoW2I8 rjFWz89IadAYmBVg6YSTEAxPVq9.425G5KsndAAt9kpz6Ex8KxO4sfPfj35Q BC.Rlj7n3j.A0igyDPRX3SFg4BHHv9PYNIqvG3yPPzeJ3SatoGjxs3tWD Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 May 2011 05:23:20 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.110.299900 References: Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 05:23:20 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and default quantifiers To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.212 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The myth of the default quantifiers for descriptions arose from a number of= =20 logical mistakes: choice of set theories, restrictions on quantification, l= imits=20 on what could be said about a set -- all of them reasonable in 1955, perhap= s=20 less so in 1989, certainly not now. The set theory was Cantorian, which=20 introduces a new entity, a set, totally different from its members between= the=20 members and the world. Traditionally, sets cannot do the sorts of things t= heir=20 members can -- unless those members are also sets. And quantifiers in the = old=20 theory allowed only singular instantiations. So, to represent anything mor= e=20 than a single ordinary object, the old system required a single object, a s= et,=20 to stand in for the things. But then, since a set couldn't do any normal t= hing,=20 like eat an apple, a way needed to be found to get back to the members agai= n and=20 that was by external quantifiers, which (with a little fiddling) could pull= =20 members out of a set to act in normal ways. This, however, created the pro= blem=20 of collective action, a several thing acting together, carrying a piano or= =20 surrounding a building. This could not be represented by the set itself, s= o it=20 had to be something done with the members of the set extracted and then com= bined=20 again, in a way we never did get done satisfactorily. xorxes has always ins= isted=20 that intuitively there was a natural way to cover all this but had long fai= led=20 to articulate a coherent theory about it, though not for want of trying. = =20 Eventually, however, he found a solution which satisfied all the requiremen= ts:=20 plural quantification (and reference), wherein terms referred to several th= ings=20 and quantifiers could be instantiated to several things at once. and so n= o=20 problem in a set doing ordinary things, its members acting together. We st= ill=20 -- but more easily -- extract members by quantification to act individually= . =20 There remain a few question -- present from the beginning -- about just wha= t is=20 required for acting collectively in specific cases, but the general result = is=20 clear. With all this now the underlying logic in place of the old, the old= =20 comments about descriptions and the like becomes unnecessary. To sum up: '= lo=20 broda' refers to brodas acting collectively (or some L-set of brodas), init= ial=20 quantifiers then extract individuals to act individually. No quantifier is= a=20 default or assumed, because it is not assumed that lo broda are acting=20 individually. To insist there is always such a quantifier is to reintroduc= e the=20 problem of collective v. individual actions in the form just eliminated. = =20 ----- Original Message ---- From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 5:07:53 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and default quantifiers 2011/5/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : >> So I was thinking about this earlier today and came to a realization. I= f >> xorlo says that there are no default quantifiers for {lo} then wouldn't = {no} >> be a reasonable possibility for the assumed quantifier? > > No, there isn't an assumed quantifier either. > >> e.g. {mi citka lo plise}. {lo plise} has no outer quantifier (implicit = or >> explicit), but I suspect that most people will pick up from context that= I >> in fact {citka pa lo su'opa plise} or something like it. > > It will depend on the context, but as an isolated sentence I would > translate it as "I eat apples". That would be my English translation too. Unsatisfactorily so, due to the grammatical constraint in English where "I eat apple." would too often make little natural sense for the native speakers. Number-unmarked equivalents of "I eat apple." are however perfectly valid and common in some natlangs such as Japanese: "ringo" (jpn) by itself means "an apple" or "apples", which optional numerals can tell apart; and, just like what you pointed out below, "boku-wa ringo-o taberu" (mi lo plise cu citka), where the number of "ringo" is unmarked, never refers to zero apple. >> So if context can change the assumptions that the tecusku makes about th= e >> secusku, then couldn't one of those assumptions be {no lo cukta} since t= here >> is no proscribed default? > > No, because "no" contains a negation. If you say "mi citka" you can't > expect people to understand that you mean "mi na citka". Similarly, if > you say "mi citka lo plise" you can't expect anyone to understand that > you mean "mi citka no lo plise". .ie > Here is an example where "su'o" fails: > > lo ci nanmu ca'o bevri lo pipno. > "Three men are carrying a piano." > > It would not occur to me to conclude that at least one of the three > men is carrying a piano, my assumption would be that they are all > three doing it together. You don't mean "mass" by "doing it together", do you? There still seems to be some sense that the default PA for any "no"-less sumti is "su'o" (since "no nai" =3D "su'o") as well as that the default NA for any "na"-less bridi is "ja'a" (since "na nai" =3D "ja'a"). mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.