From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCp1sDuBBoETBZIQQ@googlegroups.com Sun May 15 12:36:25 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QLh6y-0007OJ-6W; Sun, 15 May 2011 12:36:25 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf1794062vws.16 for ; Sun, 15 May 2011 12:36:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=qzsRfFDjcGl9EnZWtWUzyuogfUOwi8dfd8WsGNXErIo=; b=OvE5JhbCXBljyTU4o/77GDZA7yJCJAGklxe5O7uGQtCgL1GhnyYtGThLSOgXiTRDS7 56ZIUQYwwspJxrAHndxr6LKzu8dO8HFGW9iwopk1p2Bwt5ZxP6qUwDHHXgONdBGXmPVx 5CDzyUfHvGAwiiKAr0rVCp/cNYx2J8tE0ZSB0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=n/ivN6V0o8Fhov4Y+3RotIvI3/uTT6W4oCaC6gBkKbAaT7926nT7lasA4nlG5Y2RLX lPWTiM6jTVJc6qwT1Kv/wNUTsgDO20fd/igONoyeEkHbBE1CZewBsT5zPci/+pyJlo7S cA8FON4hjWDO8fl9YDAAVAw21fLBg94LWVsgE= Received: by 10.220.128.89 with SMTP id j25mr27970vcs.0.1305488169341; Sun, 15 May 2011 12:36:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.96.226 with SMTP id dv2ls1113751vdb.1.gmail; Sun, 15 May 2011 12:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.0.9 with SMTP id 9mr608720vda.12.1305488168625; Sun, 15 May 2011 12:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.0.9 with SMTP id 9mr608719vda.12.1305488168610; Sun, 15 May 2011 12:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f171.google.com ([209.85.220.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fd4si771104vbb.4.2011.05.15.12.36.08 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 15 May 2011 12:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.171; Received: by vxc40 with SMTP id 40so4568009vxc.16 for ; Sun, 15 May 2011 12:36:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.67.75 with SMTP id l11mr2727645vdt.225.1305488168208; Sun, 15 May 2011 12:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.108.167 with HTTP; Sun, 15 May 2011 12:36:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <340069.36890.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 16:36:08 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/5/14 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : > > 1. Is {lo jenmi cu sonci} usually true? I would say armies are more than just soldiers, just like houses are more than just bricks, even if soldiers and bricks are their main components. > 2. Is {lo sonci cu jenmi} usually true? No, not generally. A particular group of soldiers (plus all the structure involving them) may be an army, but soldiers in general are not armies. > 3. For what kind of X can I guarantee {X cu broda naje broda} to be false= ? A contradiction is always false. If you had said "broda nagi'e brode" then there are plenty of escapes: "ti zunle (ta) nagi'e zunle (tu)", so something can easily be to the left and not to the left, simply by picking different reference points for each "zunle", but "broda naje broda" sounds more like a pure contradiction since presumably all the other arguments and context for each of the "broda" are shared. > 4. What kind of X can refer to a group of three dogs and two cats as a > single object for which {X cu gerku je mlatu} is false? "gerku je mlatu" would seem to be false of any non-fictional creatures that I know of. To refer to a group of three dogs and two cats I would use "lo ci gerku jo'u lo re mlatu", and to say of them that they are dogs and cats I would use "cu gerku jo'u mlatu". But you are asking how to say something false, not something true, so I would say "lo ci gerku jo'u lo re mlatu cu gerku je mlatu" is generally false, unless we are in some science fictional setting involving dogcats. > 5. How can I unambiguously say "The army is composed of a thousand soldie= rs", > as opposed to "a thousand divisions" or "a thousand limbs"? > Perhaps {lo jenmi cu ki'omei lo'i sonci}? I would say: lo jenmi cu ki'omei lo sonci lo jenmi cu gunma lo ki'o sonci lo jenmi cu se sonci ki'o da as opposed to (using "jenpau" for "division"): lo jenmi cu ki'omei lo jenpau lo jenmi cu gunma lo ki'o jenpau lo jenmi cu se pagbu ki'o da (I wouldn't know how to connect limbs with armies. Armies do not consist of limbs, at least not literally. The limbs of the soldiers of an army are not limbs of the army, and in any case a soldier does not consist of limbs.) > 6. How can I unambiguously say "The army is powerful", as opposed to "it = has > a powerful soldier" or "it has a powerful division"? lo jenmi cu tsali lo jenmi cu se sonci lo tsali lo jenmi cu se pagbu lo tsali mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.