From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDt_cDuBBoE2czEUw@googlegroups.com Sun May 15 14:00:43 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QLiQa-00023j-N0; Sun, 15 May 2011 14:00:43 -0700 Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36sf15670920qyk.16 for ; Sun, 15 May 2011 14:00:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=51SSFzepSk0M1xq8gKK8mOj6djd59jNKJfKzN0XNHhY=; b=rVeZiW029mJOyoqJMOZOMz0hWY11mYPwOPJQe3y34M9DR8TswM0b/9zK1PSqvscilg GAy3uzgtHReMRGPgkRlVX79Vz8yIZrbf0rBEupeh0RauBbK+cW+ZNTURWHspVbXOn688 Eo0mYMwkUed6NinWKnCcgjJb9ZUvsKzCJl1Fw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=5Uv7m6jrEMkdDvpR2NChDdPS5Nj5X4mQVynt0fBYH96o4fX8dE3qrLyGJi7IyH9LNo Q8fAX181/4ZoBXLGlUbnUiFW8fe38U8dDaGZj/pM1mBnSw3GWyFXWgsMfl8MzFn3EzPc cJaPCDQDwqjkxr6wXboHeIJRITxQgF1TnfhwM= Received: by 10.229.19.3 with SMTP id y3mr449904qca.37.1305493229779; Sun, 15 May 2011 14:00:29 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.208.8 with SMTP id ga8ls1160941qcb.2.gmail; Sun, 15 May 2011 14:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.33.73 with SMTP id g9mr354768qcd.26.1305493229000; Sun, 15 May 2011 14:00:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.33.73 with SMTP id g9mr354767qcd.26.1305493228979; Sun, 15 May 2011 14:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f179.google.com ([209.85.220.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r34si986768qcp.5.2011.05.15.14.00.28 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 15 May 2011 14:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.179; Received: by vxi40 with SMTP id 40so3879978vxi.24 for ; Sun, 15 May 2011 14:00:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.0.239 with SMTP id 15mr350122vdh.65.1305493228287; Sun, 15 May 2011 14:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.108.167 with HTTP; Sun, 15 May 2011 14:00:28 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <406208.54874.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <340069.36890.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <406208.54874.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 18:00:28 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 5:33 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > > =A0Since the distributive sense can always be expressed by the use > of external quantifiers, there was no need for a special form for that. S= o the > unquantified form could be used for the collective sense. =A0However, it = was > thought (and practice shows this was a correct thought), that there was a= lso > needed a neutral expression, unmarked for either collective or distributi= ve. Also, if "collective" means "all together" and "distributive" means "one by one" or "individually", there are a lot of other options in between: in pairs, in threes, some in pairs and some individually, and so on. "All together" and "one by one" are just the two extremes. If we only have forms for the extremes we are left with no form for all the intermediate cases, and if we do have a form that doesn't distinguish between all the intermediate possibilities there is no reason to exclude one of the extremes from that neutral form. > This role was given to simple forms, without external quantifiers. =A0The= n the > somewhat shakier thought came along that we didn't really need a separate= form > for collective use, since the use of the simple form was generally clear = and, > when not, the matter was easily rectified. There's still "loi" and "lo'u". But if "loi pano verba cu bevri loi pano stuzi lo purdi" means that the ten children together carried the ten chairs bundled together, we still need a way to say that the ten children carried the ten chairs to the garden without having to specify whether they each took one chair, or they worked in pairs, or some worked in groups and others individually, and so on. Maybe all we care to say or all we know is that they took the chairs to the garden, without saying or knowing how the job was distributed. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.