From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC1nfvtBBoENeSNaQ@googlegroups.com Mon May 02 08:33:23 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QGv7f-0003lM-Fd; Mon, 02 May 2011 08:33:23 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf4259021pvc.16 for ; Mon, 02 May 2011 08:33:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=FueuBM3Ey8aGllvW4QjMCKTJm+OlD16zd1npS0Fm/IY=; b=eta/q7jQNYFryiDZkowS4Ajs2H9q8sOTGJmW14ZTLg/IK6cPXJPqNpatwWlMG5Ade4 HqX7iovPDQ1uyd7+nFUnh6xQKFXMFFHfHBCs1xgvYfRFVUwqbZEx20h0xCyVBgVdSt4C pQ6ccYzyR4+3RF50ijDj35gPREMcrY5UxaH4o= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=N93d3DXHq/G/Cgnn0ZYu6vqTgNPZkClN2r2cy+4MwwrTH/h2eyLZB9j6zT5NMbwWrE 5CnD6YE2XVMt/Chjryr4Vq9Rgp1iE9FnpeQNYg+LBZuKNZhHvvtRMfA/bFcNF5oYMi0K lRCRI0plwBOY0qOJ+Hk5W7WrFni6rHWu05x2c= Received: by 10.142.202.6 with SMTP id z6mr283709wff.9.1304350389745; Mon, 02 May 2011 08:33:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.143.58.18 with SMTP id l18ls1683818wfk.3.gmail; Mon, 02 May 2011 08:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.131.14 with SMTP id e14mr2892383wfd.25.1304350388765; Mon, 02 May 2011 08:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.131.14 with SMTP id e14mr2892382wfd.25.1304350388730; Mon, 02 May 2011 08:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm28-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm28-vm0.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.190]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id x35si2576977wfd.0.2011.05.02.08.33.08; Mon, 02 May 2011 08:33:08 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.44.190 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.44.190; Received: from [98.139.44.106] by nm28.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 May 2011 15:33:08 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.79] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 May 2011 15:33:08 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 02 May 2011 15:33:08 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 497422.84873.bm@omp1016.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 25572 invoked by uid 60001); 2 May 2011 15:33:07 -0000 Message-ID: <347891.1785.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: vaJLmlcVM1mGH0fJrF8ROoPAJGsoALyGWs7I7AwYZKR.4mj zIbndBC_ne1x3I3wPkKiIBtBdKn5L4v8VEvKgIXAb_hn.h28lJC7ntncPqGO 8atjJQXqk0E9s9YL2mgDrxfDyUjq8YDEeZHHRro0SsQW7BG.EIlR1C7unzUg OyjJJ61pe6L9xyWRXyU7sej.rMelgYAcTuPxk3SoDwIskSPrYhdq44gadoPf dotXhiNNHE9c5qXtWoX9vNDY6gbLSe8nsLi5T4_9OCKJIf4KnqBUlo581xNh sYJgXl3rb6bjHIPaV_h2NchrBOiKhyrK7mKZVuPEpFpX.Hh.qVf44Qi_htyZ 4qi74SL.yBaPYwhJERSSmYVPv5XNa2__.aBe64arf2FdI18vzAcPxIDVzrBt 36udifGmOYbOztw-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 02 May 2011 08:33:07 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/559 YahooMailWebService/0.8.110.299900 References: Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 08:33:07 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and default quantifiers To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.44.190 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yucky-poo! I thought we agreed at some point never to use "mass" again; it= has=20 been used over the years for at least four clearly different things and at = least=20 as many that were not clear at all. All of the useful notions have been sp= un=20 off in different ways now, so there is no need for this term. The role of = 'lo'=20 is one of the old senses of "mass", now clearly explicated: this"mass" does= =20 something if all the members participate in doing it (what counts as=20 participation varies with specific activities and is open to some fights). = =20 ----- Original Message ---- From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Mon, May 2, 2011 5:07:53 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and default quantifiers 2011/5/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : >> So I was thinking about this earlier today and came to a realization. I= f >> xorlo says that there are no default quantifiers for {lo} then wouldn't = {no} >> be a reasonable possibility for the assumed quantifier? > > No, there isn't an assumed quantifier either. > >> e.g. {mi citka lo plise}. {lo plise} has no outer quantifier (implicit = or >> explicit), but I suspect that most people will pick up from context that= I >> in fact {citka pa lo su'opa plise} or something like it. > > It will depend on the context, but as an isolated sentence I would > translate it as "I eat apples". That would be my English translation too. Unsatisfactorily so, due to the grammatical constraint in English where "I eat apple." would too often make little natural sense for the native speakers. Number-unmarked equivalents of "I eat apple." are however perfectly valid and common in some natlangs such as Japanese: "ringo" (jpn) by itself means "an apple" or "apples", which optional numerals can tell apart; and, just like what you pointed out below, "boku-wa ringo-o taberu" (mi lo plise cu citka), where the number of "ringo" is unmarked, never refers to zero apple. >> So if context can change the assumptions that the tecusku makes about th= e >> secusku, then couldn't one of those assumptions be {no lo cukta} since t= here >> is no proscribed default? > > No, because "no" contains a negation. If you say "mi citka" you can't > expect people to understand that you mean "mi na citka". Similarly, if > you say "mi citka lo plise" you can't expect anyone to understand that > you mean "mi citka no lo plise". .ie > Here is an example where "su'o" fails: > > lo ci nanmu ca'o bevri lo pipno. > "Three men are carrying a piano." > > It would not occur to me to conclude that at least one of the three > men is carrying a piano, my assumption would be that they are all > three doing it together. You don't mean "mass" by "doing it together", do you? There still seems to be some sense that the default PA for any "no"-less sumti is "su'o" (since "no nai" =3D "su'o") as well as that the default NA for any "na"-less bridi is "ja'a" (since "na nai" =3D "ja'a"). mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.