From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxC178nuBBoEBK-o6w@googlegroups.com Tue May 17 06:27:35 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QMKJ6-00016I-HU; Tue, 17 May 2011 06:27:33 -0700 Received: by wwb13 with SMTP id 13sf880561wwb.16 for ; Tue, 17 May 2011 06:27:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bpzmOescWvWP1gBTB8RkAlhCL9nW2w6lfNQed4BUyMc=; b=x8TtND5gNfg5bn5Wnzf9qKtJurITopuYTVc3Qb6GjyoDPuSn560qH42nMJOc2BoiBH 1HOXbWNUOegXJwmxgkqZKF3YH/Ro0jnao4Fc+eGqNNic2JhLnxsBOcJn+Sjedyyrg0xA X/2UoCkeIW7vGk49vPFfvwz7Qo+1Lgqu2D1B0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=jtiym1kg0ImuberqUnUQENTUsNBg1uBdI7KGF5LdCbRYcabQb3irwYyzPNKjEozLw2 vrrwiyMbU84VGczdHQaJP+ZqTYZtblMfJwAZxyY3qGEdx3d70HSa/vUm0iB5yFX1S5WV OOLGejYpEsKcQhDQlFsbehs4akRxF+uHtOme4= Received: by 10.216.232.85 with SMTP id m63mr165709weq.4.1305638837104; Tue, 17 May 2011 06:27:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.95.10 with SMTP id b10ls2152344wbn.3.gmail; Tue, 17 May 2011 06:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.10.207 with SMTP id q15mr45051wbq.1.1305638836172; Tue, 17 May 2011 06:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.10.207 with SMTP id q15mr45050wbq.1.1305638836148; Tue, 17 May 2011 06:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f171.google.com (mail-wy0-f171.google.com [74.125.82.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d13si163329wby.2.2011.05.17.06.27.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 17 May 2011 06:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.171; Received: by wyb32 with SMTP id 32so529583wyb.16 for ; Tue, 17 May 2011 06:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.217.6.197 with SMTP id y47mr3465384wes.55.1305638835786; Tue, 17 May 2011 06:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [80.192.144.173] (cpc2-pres4-0-0-cust172.pres.cable.virginmedia.com [80.192.144.173]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l24sm335000wbc.30.2011.05.17.06.27.14 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 17 May 2011 06:27:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4DD277B1.3090503@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:27:13 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.17) Gecko/20110414 Thunderbird/3.1.10 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses References: <340069.36890.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <406208.54874.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 15/05/2011 22:00: > On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 5:33 PM, John E Clifford w= rote: >> >> Since the distributive sense can always be expressed by the use >> of external quantifiers, there was no need for a special form for that. = So the >> unquantified form could be used for the collective sense. However, it w= as >> thought (and practice shows this was a correct thought), that there was = also >> needed a neutral expression, unmarked for either collective or distribut= ive. > > Also, if "collective" means "all together" and "distributive" means > "one by one" or "individually", there are a lot of other options in > between: in pairs, in threes, some in pairs and some individually, and > so on. "All together" and "one by one" are just the two extremes. If > we only have forms for the extremes we are left with no form for all > the intermediate cases, and if we do have a form that doesn't > distinguish between all the intermediate possibilities there is no > reason to exclude one of the extremes from that neutral form. This is a good point, but if you agree that "the team" is subject to same r= ange of interpretations on the collective--distributive scale as "the team = members" is (e.g. "the team each have red hair"), then I think the appropri= ate conclusion is (a) that when an individual is construed as a collectivit= y it may receive wholly or partly distributive readings (quantifying over m= embers or subsets of the collectivity), and (b) individual-construable-as-c= ollectivity is the default (most underspecified) interpretation. To try to state essentially the same point in a completely different way: j= ust as brodeing holds of the referentage of "lo broda" to any degree on the= coll--dist scale, so does "brodaing". On the plural reference model, "lo b= roda" has many referents, and it needn't be the case that each is brode; my= point it that it also needn't be the case that each is broda. I'm not sure if you already agree with this point. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.