From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCImsruBBoEW9YHsg@googlegroups.com Tue May 17 07:58:40 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QMLj9-0008Oc-Gd; Tue, 17 May 2011 07:58:34 -0700 Received: by yxd5 with SMTP id 5sf571732yxd.16 for ; Tue, 17 May 2011 07:58:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dcELMBmoN2FkwPURcHFE9e8MSRRKGzNNU04gVWfLPGE=; b=R2i/TNhEo4Bo9Y3FwV6oWIOw2RMA+fF1mV9kAte/OxrDdIfSeniKezo2ErTI4dUvTW uV+Z6O5Tx340xGY507ddmOsWRXGJvqdp51OdzoHGEHbTdXVQy+U7qRU9ZJfMDM7XzAG+ xUt9VOICPr18YRlixdkPWZkiMBB249OdjUO8w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=eq1LFn6Nkwl7bblE76btLkKuwVZJ7wp4E+jC2kyWS9+z4CSeiLREX92/eyDc8nle2B RgmZnBpQNAsGB0DXTH5WQfc9sKCuDWAGoqOdYcdF9W0FNhmO3xZC3R2pRaJ7cg92O3lJ dCD5N1omUn0G5LGKAyYqh/qUvWyAtKqiYRkCI= Received: by 10.146.66.21 with SMTP id o21mr63907yaa.26.1305644296537; Tue, 17 May 2011 07:58:16 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.44.22 with SMTP id r22ls306905ybr.2.gmail; Tue, 17 May 2011 07:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.154.165 with SMTP id h25mr141100yhk.20.1305644295578; Tue, 17 May 2011 07:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.154.165 with SMTP id h25mr141099yhk.20.1305644295565; Tue, 17 May 2011 07:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm22-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm22-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.137]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id u24si94880yhn.12.2011.05.17.07.58.14; Tue, 17 May 2011 07:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.137 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.137; Received: from [66.94.237.199] by nm22.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2011 14:58:14 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.124] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2011 14:58:14 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1029.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2011 14:58:14 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 257141.19174.bm@omp1029.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 26910 invoked by uid 60001); 17 May 2011 14:58:12 -0000 Message-ID: <1052.65956.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: B1QqogoVM1ka4RJ_vyZwVBUTa0ZdScrYv6SN47pDdbW9gf_ Ou1sNSjoU Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 07:58:11 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/567 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.303096 References: <340069.36890.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <406208.54874.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DD277B1.3090503@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 07:58:11 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <4DD277B1.3090503@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.137 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hmmm! This seems to be part and parcel of the issue of who all gets the cr= edit=20 or blame. To take the team example again, when the team wins (or loses), d= oes=20 that include the manager, the bat boy, the groundskeeper, etc.? Since mana= gers=20 regularly get credit or blame, they seem to be part of the teams, yet there= is=20 an obvious sense in which they are not (usually). xorxes wants armies to b= e=20 more than soldiers, to include in materiel, soldiers' tools -- are these= =20 different meanings of "army" or different restrictions on what to count in = when=20 making a particular claim? And does it make a difference? I think (on fir= st or=20 early second thought) that it does: there has to be some limit on what {lo= =20 broda} allows in, else we can have lo broda consisting of many things that = are=20 not broda and only one that is. This seems to make it essentially le broda= and=20 deny veridicality, the distinguishing mark of {lo} constructions. ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 8:27:13 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 15/05/2011 22:00: > On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 5:33 PM, John E Clifford w= rote: >> >> Since the distributive sense can always be expressed by the use >> of external quantifiers, there was no need for a special form for that. = So=20 the >> unquantified form could be used for the collective sense. However, it w= as >> thought (and practice shows this was a correct thought), that there was = also >> needed a neutral expression, unmarked for either collective or distribut= ive. > > Also, if "collective" means "all together" and "distributive" means > "one by one" or "individually", there are a lot of other options in > between: in pairs, in threes, some in pairs and some individually, and > so on. "All together" and "one by one" are just the two extremes. If > we only have forms for the extremes we are left with no form for all > the intermediate cases, and if we do have a form that doesn't > distinguish between all the intermediate possibilities there is no > reason to exclude one of the extremes from that neutral form. This is a good point, but if you agree that "the team" is subject to same r= ange=20 of interpretations on the collective--distributive scale as "the team membe= rs"=20 is (e.g. "the team each have red hair"), then I think the appropriate concl= usion=20 is (a) that when an individual is construed as a collectivity it may receiv= e=20 wholly or partly distributive readings (quantifying over members or subsets= of=20 the collectivity), and (b) individual-construable-as-collectivity is the de= fault=20 (most underspecified) interpretation. To try to state essentially the same point in a completely different way: j= ust=20 as brodeing holds of the referentage of "lo broda" to any degree on the=20 coll--dist scale, so does "brodaing". On the plural reference model, "lo br= oda"=20 has many referents, and it needn't be the case that each is brode; my point= it=20 that it also needn't be the case that each is broda. I'm not sure if you already agree with this point. --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.