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Tue, 17 May 2011 08:37:25 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/567 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.303096 References: <340069.36890.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <406208.54874.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DD277B1.3090503@gmail.com> <1052.65956.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DD290A5.7080801@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 08:37:25 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <4DD290A5.7080801@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.44.112 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, we don't have to say exactly what a broda is (any brodacea of the genu= s=20 brobroda, ...) but I still think it has to insist that the referent of {lo= =20 broda} be broda. This allows for some disagreement about just what counts,= but,=20 for each side, the answer excludes certain [whatever]s from being lo broda.= =20 "The boys moved the piano" can be pretty indefinite about how that was done= , who=20 hefted what, and so on, maybe even including some who didn't lift a finger,= but=20 the boys had better be boys in some fairly clear sense (which may include g= irls=20 and adults, of course, depending). =20 ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 10:13:41 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses Yes, there is this question that you raise, which might be answered by=20 philosophers of mereology or by the wisdom of lojban-speaking crowds. But t= he=20 specification of Lojban shouldn't rely on the question having been answered= . To=20 give another example, the Lojban specification points from {gerku} to the= =20 encyclopedia entry for dogs, but Lojban doesn't have to be responsible for= =20 stating the content of that encyolopedia entry (which is rather a job for= =20 zoologists, or folk crowds). --And. John E Clifford, On 17/05/2011 15:58: > Hmmm! This seems to be part and parcel of the issue of who all gets the= =20 credit > or blame. To take the team example again, when the team wins (or loses),= does > that include the manager, the bat boy, the groundskeeper, etc.? Since=20 managers > regularly get credit or blame, they seem to be part of the teams, yet the= re is > an obvious sense in which they are not (usually). xorxes wants armies to= be > more than soldiers, to include in materiel, soldiers' tools -- are these > different meanings of "army" or different restrictions on what to count i= n=20 when > making a particular claim? And does it make a difference? I think (on f= irst=20 >or > early second thought) that it does: there has to be some limit on what {l= o > broda} allows in, else we can have lo broda consisting of many things tha= t are > not broda and only one that is. This seems to make it essentially le bro= da=20 and > deny veridicality, the distinguishing mark of {lo} constructions. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: And Rosta > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 8:27:13 AM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses > > Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 15/05/2011 22:00: >> On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 5:33 PM, John E Clifford = =20 >wrote: >>> >>> Since the distributive sense can always be expressed by the use >>> of external quantifiers, there was no need for a special form for that.= So > the >>> unquantified form could be used for the collective sense. However, it = was >>> thought (and practice shows this was a correct thought), that there was= also >>> needed a neutral expression, unmarked for either collective or distribu= tive. >> >> Also, if "collective" means "all together" and "distributive" means >> "one by one" or "individually", there are a lot of other options in >> between: in pairs, in threes, some in pairs and some individually, and >> so on. "All together" and "one by one" are just the two extremes. If >> we only have forms for the extremes we are left with no form for all >> the intermediate cases, and if we do have a form that doesn't >> distinguish between all the intermediate possibilities there is no >> reason to exclude one of the extremes from that neutral form. > > This is a good point, but if you agree that "the team" is subject to same= =20 range > of interpretations on the collective--distributive scale as "the team mem= bers" > is (e.g. "the team each have red hair"), then I think the appropriate=20 >conclusion > is (a) that when an individual is construed as a collectivity it may rece= ive > wholly or partly distributive readings (quantifying over members or subse= ts of > the collectivity), and (b) individual-construable-as-collectivity is the= =20 >default > (most underspecified) interpretation. > > To try to state essentially the same point in a completely different way:= just > as brodeing holds of the referentage of "lo broda" to any degree on the > coll--dist scale, so does "brodaing". On the plural reference model, "lo= =20 broda" > has many referents, and it needn't be the case that each is brode; my poi= nt it > that it also needn't be the case that each is broda. > > I'm not sure if you already agree with this point. > > --And. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.