From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCK7cruBBoEzMcyaw@googlegroups.com Tue May 17 11:14:54 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QMOnC-0003Qg-Ag; Tue, 17 May 2011 11:14:54 -0700 Received: by pzk4 with SMTP id 4sf629367pzk.16 for ; Tue, 17 May 2011 11:14:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=P2VIxHhwsJUC6OCyt1H252Wnxfmm0TetFdK/FQSc0bs=; b=gOUlEHnooIRpgMlTC4bOICn6Gftjje44WVizpS6ecFViwIHp6kHZku8ruPxc+nbfwR /wonQqo6Hnuu4w9OUAC4orRgw1j8LsNd/XnPvBeq7h4whw2Cvn0h9PQ1giq0MEs4rUJf F4I2u4u88ZUnwEWfgqH12EnZ2In0kvFNW47MI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=r2q8owIxGS4LStJfQO0yzXe+7lsxfQPMIRuAsW+36wgmi9dAUdiJu7SbOTUwrVe5Wc 6vtztQUn4Uz8c1eu9x65L12e0k2RBtHlsXO4Wi1IAO9gri8KH977UAMfCrvNX4JD50E8 p5XrHaCEAOmNT7xKBd/Zyg9HDBvO8ZlImUABA= Received: by 10.68.33.226 with SMTP id u2mr94821pbi.29.1305654922971; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.36.67 with SMTP id o3ls2671262pbj.0.gmail; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.3.167 with SMTP id d7mr144329pbd.21.1305654922418; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.3.167 with SMTP id d7mr144327pbd.21.1305654922398; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm1.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm1.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.128]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id d10si318164pbu.15.2011.05.17.10.55.22; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.44.128 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.44.128; Received: from [98.139.44.100] by nm1.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2011 17:55:22 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.69] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2011 17:55:22 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1006.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 17 May 2011 17:55:22 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 77845.81893.bm@omp1006.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 73980 invoked by uid 60001); 17 May 2011 17:55:21 -0000 Message-ID: <306957.73183.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: sWdpykoVM1kCvQ4V3iRMury2zaE9Dy7Lr4m.oqrUMWGLjfv Mhg78jvwedeIHKHOymE.Y6OP2fW5C4djFgakwlT7TtxwyNc7BldvT_xMhcqs vX3sHt0ieLq5qDdDjcVMR_nD0y7LauA0qDa20QtDRWH6eAcAFlQoP_KQeWG7 uZHbpQmGgOKhfOyGrjxh2hEXfIEM6yCH3VLhgK.tFQLZ9xc8gnQDK.gCYnwm Yg1IB3BGZZ9hvMSo1oBEeeGdkZylpNN.i0kIe4CanXMDcKWBrbBDt6uALIU9 Ud0NW_DdQEf4cKLknGj.VOxsK59nlCtAu0zytPmrXxVES4ckHbtpZS9e33Ev ZzAGo1vwhVPUlstJepiTonBeF6FIkKNbnw7z4flFWMejFWb2oYTvAkKt3pqI dGufH7uEzavCxcOpidlnOea05hax6lNYl9wdXn_jyH0nXwC8NwlIXg10xVJs Z_f80Hr9TX2TV9J9viL05Z007izW9T9.7SAHexvEoZw-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 17 May 2011 10:55:21 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/567 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.303096 References: <340069.36890.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <406208.54874.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DD277B1.3090503@gmail.com> <1052.65956.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DD290A5.7080801@gmail.com> <464297.91439.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DD2B2B2.5010901@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 10:55:21 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <4DD2B2B2.5010901@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.44.128 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK. I suppose someone could find a reason to quibble with this, but I don'= t=20 really see it myself. Though I admit I would be more comfortable with "wer= e the=20 boys". ----- Original Message ---- From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 12:38:58 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses Fine yes, as long as the equivalence (in Lojban, with lo) of "The boy(s) mo= ved=20 the piano" and "The mover(s) of the piano were boys" is accepted. John E Clifford, On 17/05/2011 16:37: > Yes, we don't have to say exactly what a broda is (any brodacea of the ge= nus > brobroda, ...) but I still think it has to insist that the referent of {l= o > broda} be broda. This allows for some disagreement about just what count= s,=20 >but, > for each side, the answer excludes certain [whatever]s from being lo brod= a. > "The boys moved the piano" can be pretty indefinite about how that was do= ne,=20 >who > hefted what, and so on, maybe even including some who didn't lift a finge= r,=20 but > the boys had better be boys in some fairly clear sense (which may include= =20 girls > and adults, of course, depending). > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: And Rosta > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 10:13:41 AM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses > > Yes, there is this question that you raise, which might be answered by > philosophers of mereology or by the wisdom of lojban-speaking crowds. But= the > specification of Lojban shouldn't rely on the question having been answer= ed.=20 To > give another example, the Lojban specification points from {gerku} to the > encyclopedia entry for dogs, but Lojban doesn't have to be responsible fo= r > stating the content of that encyolopedia entry (which is rather a job for > zoologists, or folk crowds). > > --And. > > John E Clifford, On 17/05/2011 15:58: >> Hmmm! This seems to be part and parcel of the issue of who all gets the > credit >> or blame. To take the team example again, when the team wins (or loses)= ,=20 does >> that include the manager, the bat boy, the groundskeeper, etc.? Since > managers >> regularly get credit or blame, they seem to be part of the teams, yet th= ere=20 is >> an obvious sense in which they are not (usually). xorxes wants armies t= o be >> more than soldiers, to include in materiel, soldiers' tools -- are thes= e >> different meanings of "army" or different restrictions on what to count = in > when >> making a particular claim? And does it make a difference? I think (on = first >> or >> early second thought) that it does: there has to be some limit on what {= lo >> broda} allows in, else we can have lo broda consisting of many things th= at=20 are >> not broda and only one that is. This seems to make it essentially le br= oda > and >> deny veridicality, the distinguishing mark of {lo} constructions. >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: And Rosta >> To: lojban@googlegroups.com >> Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 8:27:13 AM >> Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses >> >> Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 15/05/2011 22:00: >>> On Sun, May 15, 2011 at 5:33 PM, John E Clifford >> wrote: >>>> >>>> Since the distributive sense can always be expressed by the use >>>> of external quantifiers, there was no need for a special form for that= . So >> the >>>> unquantified form could be used for the collective sense. However, it= was >>>> thought (and practice shows this was a correct thought), that there wa= s=20 also >>>> needed a neutral expression, unmarked for either collective or=20 distributive. >>> >>> Also, if "collective" means "all together" and "distributive" means >>> "one by one" or "individually", there are a lot of other options in >>> between: in pairs, in threes, some in pairs and some individually, and >>> so on. "All together" and "one by one" are just the two extremes. If >>> we only have forms for the extremes we are left with no form for all >>> the intermediate cases, and if we do have a form that doesn't >>> distinguish between all the intermediate possibilities there is no >>> reason to exclude one of the extremes from that neutral form. >> >> This is a good point, but if you agree that "the team" is subject to sam= e > range >> of interpretations on the collective--distributive scale as "the team=20 members" >> is (e.g. "the team each have red hair"), then I think the appropriate >> conclusion >> is (a) that when an individual is construed as a collectivity it may rec= eive >> wholly or partly distributive readings (quantifying over members or subs= ets=20 of >> the collectivity), and (b) individual-construable-as-collectivity is the >> default >> (most underspecified) interpretation. >> >> To try to state essentially the same point in a completely different way= :=20 just >> as brodeing holds of the referentage of "lo broda" to any degree on the >> coll--dist scale, so does "brodaing". On the plural reference model, "lo > broda" >> has many referents, and it needn't be the case that each is brode; my po= int=20 it >> that it also needn't be the case that each is broda. >> >> I'm not sure if you already agree with this point. >> >> --And. >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.