From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhCv7M7uBBoEEoYzZQ@googlegroups.com Wed May 18 05:06:33 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QMfW7-0003Sa-2W; Wed, 18 May 2011 05:06:23 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf2640178wya.16 for ; Wed, 18 May 2011 05:06:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=Y7uJ2uGh365NTkRjkDA1RcHRiRqaLVLFcGaB79lcJvA=; b=2PA+2+HQLglUkP9LdQ9hcf2h4GzaJKE1nhzjk6CXoSy7H8V5yqqzO3gse7L7qZN9hx CZG7i/sYsElf74FByTxfxcW00tDqae6XCyJclKeVlzq4ux8LsMRzg3LpEHEVchfzJ7+y 4G0gfp23S4rngfGafA+hFF75s8XRvI7/BIURs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=WznKRjia8YZckPnq+j9Gr0u8+gum2N0yQ7kvh6WAb+aAs0McUhqL5CfF7OjKhPeyF3 pZNgkD/3yknYbwQ0Zc/KH7VDeCmxP3BoLAyQJJtXX2xfzZPZLuEVznyuGhRFmthSqgWC vyz/vj2qZy74vGO/m2pvwKb/yVN3j82cqToHk= Received: by 10.216.67.134 with SMTP id j6mr553271wed.21.1305720367615; Wed, 18 May 2011 05:06:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.25.139 with SMTP id z11ls42744eez.0.gmail; Wed, 18 May 2011 05:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.10.133 with SMTP id 5mr210207eev.18.1305720366340; Wed, 18 May 2011 05:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.10.133 with SMTP id 5mr210206eev.18.1305720366305; Wed, 18 May 2011 05:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f48.google.com (mail-qw0-f48.google.com [209.85.216.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v8si534487eev.4.2011.05.18.05.06.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 18 May 2011 05:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.48; Received: by mail-qw0-f48.google.com with SMTP id 9so1053669qwj.35 for ; Wed, 18 May 2011 05:06:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.127.212 with SMTP id h20mr1309239qcs.78.1305720365521; Wed, 18 May 2011 05:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.62.78 with HTTP; Wed, 18 May 2011 05:06:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 08:06:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] What's in a name? From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517577072901bb804a38bb6ec --001517577072901bb804a38bb6ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 7:27 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > But as I understand it, a cooperative speaker (correct me if I'm misusing > the term) wouldn't name a dog "The Great Depression" as anything but a joke. > > I don't see how you say that. My dog's name is Bear in English, la cribe in lojban. He is certainly not lo cribe, nor even le cribe. My daughters' name in lojban would be la melbi, but she also happens to be lo melbi be mi and so therefore le melbi, but that is not the same as her name. Now for something like "The Roaring Twenties", yeah, "la" would definitely be in order. The Great Depression is a border case. The point is that it certainly was an economic depression and it certainly was great. So "le" can be used, so could "la". > Furthermore, The Great Depression is a name that is used to refer to the > time period by many, not just me. > How many people call something a particular name has absolutely no bearing on whether something is a la or not. Even if I'm the only one to call you by a particular nickname, I still use "la". The point is whether it's strictly a label or whether in fact it's truly descriptive. > I might expect someone using {lo} to be referring to some other time period > which can be reasonable described as a "great depression", and {le} would > still make me wonder if they meant this particular one. > > My heuristic tended to be, if it's capitalized in English, (usually) use > {la}, since if it's capitalized in English, it refers to a particular thing > (which may not be a good terbri), unlike {le}, which can refer to one thing > in one sentence and another in another. And that's a great heuristic. But again, just like "Michael" may refer to different people in different contexts, there's no guarantee that "Great Depression" refers to only one period in time, in one place (or not, as I said, a dog, a nickname for a pothole in the highway (I know, a joke in English, but not in the lojban), etc.) So in that respect, it's not much different than "le". Even now, when I refer to the Great Depression, I am referring to the period between 1929-1939 in the United States. But someone else might mean 1873-1896, which was also referred to as that. Someone else might be referring to the album by Trigger the Bloodshed, etc. etc. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Depression_%28disambiguation%29 for other ideas) So yeah, you can use "la" but in this particular case it also happens to be descriptive, and "le" would work as well. --gejyspa > > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Well, the point to remember is that "la banli nu pindi" refers to a >> particular something/someone that may not be a great depression. It's just >> a name. I could name my dog "la banli nu pindi", and then I could say "la >> banli nu pindi cu muvgau lo rebla be vo'a" But it would less likely to be >> true to say "le banli nu pindi cu muvgau lo rebla be vo'a" since here I am >> actually speaking about something that I am describing AS being a great >> depression (whether it is or not, that's how I'm choosing to describe it. It >> might be a dog, but that's highly unlikely). So if you are speaking about >> the period that in the United states lasted from 1929-1939, use "le" (or >> even "lo") >> >> --gejyspa >> >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 2:15 PM, .arpis. wrote: >> >>> When should one use a descriptive name as opposed to a non-name? e.g. >>> (using {pindi} because I don't know enough economics to accurately translate >>> "depression") >>> {le banli nu pindi} vs {la banli nu pindi} >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > > > -- > Alex R > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001517577072901bb804a38bb6ec Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0

On Wed, May 18, 201= 1 at 7:27 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com> wrote:
But as I understand it, a cooperative speaker (correct me if I'm misusi= ng the term) wouldn't name a dog "The Great Depression" as an= ything but a joke.


=A0 I don't see how you= say that.=A0 My dog's name is Bear in English, la cribe in lojban.=A0 = He is certainly not lo cribe, nor even le cribe.=A0 My daughters' name = in lojban would be la melbi, but she also happens to be lo melbi be mi and = so therefore le melbi, but that is not the same as her name.=A0 Now for som= ething like "The Roaring Twenties", yeah, "la" would de= finitely be in order.=A0 The Great Depression is a border case.=A0 The poin= t is that it certainly was an economic depression and it certainly was grea= t. So "le" can be used, so could "la".
=A0
Furt= hermore, The Great Depression is a name that is used to refer to the time p= eriod by many, not just me.

=A0 How many people call something a particular name = has absolutely no bearing on whether something is a la or not. Even if I= 9;m the only one to call you by a particular nickname, I still use "la= ". The point is whether it's strictly a label or whether in fact i= t's truly descriptive.


I might expect someone using {lo} to be referring to some other time pe= riod which can be reasonable described as a "great depression", a= nd {le} would still make me wonder if they meant this particular one.

My heuristic tended to be, if it's capitalized in English, (usually= ) use {la}, since if it's capitalized in English, it refers to a partic= ular thing (which may not be a good terbri), unlike {le}, which can refer t= o one thing in one sentence and another in another.

=A0 And that's a great heuristic.=A0 But again, just like &quo= t;Michael" may refer to different people in different contexts, there&= #39;s no guarantee that "Great Depression" refers to only one per= iod in time, in one place (or not, as I said, a dog, a nickname for a potho= le in the highway (I know, a=A0 joke in English, but not in the lojban), et= c.) So in that respect, it's not much different than "le".
=A0=A0=A0=A0 Even now, when I refer to the Great Depression, I am refer= ring to the period between 1929-1939 in the United States.=A0 But someone e= lse might mean 1873-1896, which was also referred to as that.=A0=A0 Someone= else might be referring to the album by Trigger the Bloodshed, etc. etc. (= see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Depression_%28disambigua= tion%29 for other ideas)=A0 So yeah, you can use "la" but in = this particular case it also happens to be descriptive, and "le" = would work as well.

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

=A0

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Michael Tu= rniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 Well, the point to remember is that "la banli nu = pindi" refers to a particular something/someone that may not be a grea= t depression.=A0 It's just a name.=A0 I could name my dog "la banl= i nu pindi", and then I could say "la banli nu pindi cu muvgau lo= rebla be vo'a" But it would less likely to be true to say "l= e banli nu pindi cu muvgau lo rebla be vo'a" since here I am actua= lly speaking about something that I am describing AS=A0 being a great depre= ssion (whether it is or not, that's how I'm choosing to describe it= . It might be a dog, but that's highly unlikely).=A0 So if you are spea= king about the period that in the United states lasted from 1929-1939, use = "le" (or even "lo")

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 2:15 PM, .arpis. = <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
When should= one use a descriptive name as opposed to a non-name? e.g. (using {pindi} b= ecause I don't know enough economics to accurately translate "depr= ession")
{le banli nu pindi} vs {la banli nu pindi}

--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R
=

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