From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhCogtDuBBoElEQbKg@googlegroups.com Wed May 18 10:26:20 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QMkVg-0002T4-95; Wed, 18 May 2011 10:26:20 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf3731907fxm.16 for ; Wed, 18 May 2011 10:26:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=jT8fS/8qgaXtBWidtLj8n6Oz7+oozmfDfG+i2Qdx6q8=; b=064eZy/gW2MswpTlDWEUuNlQaCA/2dldTya0FUPPxd7mvDg78gxP1f6cZEAN3VlWI4 fyDFgmESurA4Hlhc0C8fGLB6vZMYpzmPBakiaijgT+MDCiilzcKItOXLR21P/uZXqMJg dclLsB77zhkUKl0GQfGrPOBwr/gsnYQG5BBgg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=wVhUu23cuQ7fUIQdrCYfJ2s9e4zqL3bq7sGemgFTsyulqLRCnpAGLr1f/DfFtTLMm4 lLcZ7KceyVzU7kznXp4VJoPwigeICiuEkd3DlE4Ptw0m7VteDi7ONGmn7C9O23fhULh7 GMlxCv2UclvZR/6dUpPJJDg6hV50Sxyw/+tYg= Received: by 10.223.29.76 with SMTP id p12mr435120fac.38.1305739560890; Wed, 18 May 2011 10:26:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.25.14 with SMTP id x14ls206945fab.3.gmail; Wed, 18 May 2011 10:26:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.66.87 with SMTP id m23mr224753fai.15.1305739559943; Wed, 18 May 2011 10:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.66.87 with SMTP id m23mr224752fai.15.1305739559878; Wed, 18 May 2011 10:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f46.google.com (mail-bw0-f46.google.com [209.85.214.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id z10si185287fam.5.2011.05.18.10.25.59 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 18 May 2011 10:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.46; Received: by mail-bw0-f46.google.com with SMTP id 15so2254358bwz.5 for ; Wed, 18 May 2011 10:25:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.31.231 with SMTP id z39mr2045736bkc.134.1305739559598; Wed, 18 May 2011 10:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.70.84 with HTTP; Wed, 18 May 2011 10:25:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 13:25:59 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] What's in a name? From: ".arpis." To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485f7949a9e801a04a3902e61 --001485f7949a9e801a04a3902e61 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Okay; makes sense. On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 7:27 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > >> But as I understand it, a cooperative speaker (correct me if I'm misusing >> the term) wouldn't name a dog "The Great Depression" as anything but a joke. >> >> > I don't see how you say that. My dog's name is Bear in English, la cribe > in lojban. He is certainly not lo cribe, nor even le cribe. My daughters' > name in lojban would be la melbi, but she also happens to be lo melbi be mi > and so therefore le melbi, but that is not the same as her name. Now for > something like "The Roaring Twenties", yeah, "la" would definitely be in > order. The Great Depression is a border case. The point is that it > certainly was an economic depression and it certainly was great. So "le" can > be used, so could "la". > > >> Furthermore, The Great Depression is a name that is used to refer to the >> time period by many, not just me. >> > > How many people call something a particular name has absolutely no > bearing on whether something is a la or not. Even if I'm the only one to > call you by a particular nickname, I still use "la". The point is whether > it's strictly a label or whether in fact it's truly descriptive. > > >> I might expect someone using {lo} to be referring to some other time >> period which can be reasonable described as a "great depression", and {le} >> would still make me wonder if they meant this particular one. >> >> My heuristic tended to be, if it's capitalized in English, (usually) use >> {la}, since if it's capitalized in English, it refers to a particular thing >> (which may not be a good terbri), unlike {le}, which can refer to one thing >> in one sentence and another in another. > > > And that's a great heuristic. But again, just like "Michael" may refer > to different people in different contexts, there's no guarantee that "Great > Depression" refers to only one period in time, in one place (or not, as I > said, a dog, a nickname for a pothole in the highway (I know, a joke in > English, but not in the lojban), etc.) So in that respect, it's not much > different than "le". > > Even now, when I refer to the Great Depression, I am referring to the > period between 1929-1939 in the United States. But someone else might mean > 1873-1896, which was also referred to as that. Someone else might be > referring to the album by Trigger the Bloodshed, etc. etc. (see > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Depression_%28disambiguation%29 for > other ideas) So yeah, you can use "la" but in this particular case it also > happens to be descriptive, and "le" would work as well. > > --gejyspa > > > >> >> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Michael Turniansky < >> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Well, the point to remember is that "la banli nu pindi" refers to a >>> particular something/someone that may not be a great depression. It's just >>> a name. I could name my dog "la banli nu pindi", and then I could say "la >>> banli nu pindi cu muvgau lo rebla be vo'a" But it would less likely to be >>> true to say "le banli nu pindi cu muvgau lo rebla be vo'a" since here I am >>> actually speaking about something that I am describing AS being a great >>> depression (whether it is or not, that's how I'm choosing to describe it. It >>> might be a dog, but that's highly unlikely). So if you are speaking about >>> the period that in the United states lasted from 1929-1939, use "le" (or >>> even "lo") >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 2:15 PM, .arpis. wrote: >>> >>>> When should one use a descriptive name as opposed to a non-name? e.g. >>>> (using {pindi} because I don't know enough economics to accurately translate >>>> "depression") >>>> {le banli nu pindi} vs {la banli nu pindi} >>>> >>>> -- >>>> mu'o mi'e .arpis. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alex R >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .arpis. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001485f7949a9e801a04a3902e61 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay; makes sense.

On Wed, May 18, 2011 a= t 8:06 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0

O= n Wed, May 18, 2011 at 7:27 AM, Alex Rozenshteyn <rpglover64@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
But as I understand it, a cooperative speaker (correct me if I'm misusi= ng the term) wouldn't name a dog "The Great Depression" as an= ything but a joke.

Furthermore, The Great Depression is a name that is used to refer t= o the time period by many, not just me.

I might expect someone using {lo} to be referring to some other time pe= riod which can be reasonable described as a "great depression", a= nd {le} would still make me wonder if they meant this particular one.

My heuristic tended to be, if it's capitalized in English, (usually= ) use {la}, since if it's capitalized in English, it refers to a partic= ular thing (which may not be a good terbri), unlike {le}, which can refer t= o one thing in one sentence and another in another.

=A0 And that's a great heuristic.=A0 But again, just lik= e "Michael" may refer to different people in different contexts, = there's no guarantee that "Great Depression" refers to only o= ne period in time, in one place (or not, as I said, a dog, a nickname for a= pothole in the highway (I know, a=A0 joke in English, but not in the lojba= n), etc.) So in that respect, it's not much different than "le&quo= t;.

=A0=A0=A0=A0 Even now, when I refer to the Great Depression, I am refer= ring to the period between 1929-1939 in the United States.=A0 But someone e= lse might mean 1873-1896, which was also referred to as that.=A0=A0 Someone= else might be referring to the album by Trigger the Bloodshed, etc. etc. (= see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Depres= sion_%28disambiguation%29 for other ideas)=A0 So yeah, you can use &quo= t;la" but in this particular case it also happens to be descriptive, a= nd "le" would work as well.

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

=A0
<= /div>
=

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:04 PM, Michael Tu= rniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 Well, the point to remember is that "la banli nu = pindi" refers to a particular something/someone that may not be a grea= t depression.=A0 It's just a name.=A0 I could name my dog "la banl= i nu pindi", and then I could say "la banli nu pindi cu muvgau lo= rebla be vo'a" But it would less likely to be true to say "l= e banli nu pindi cu muvgau lo rebla be vo'a" since here I am actua= lly speaking about something that I am describing AS=A0 being a great depre= ssion (whether it is or not, that's how I'm choosing to describe it= . It might be a dog, but that's highly unlikely).=A0 So if you are spea= king about the period that in the United states lasted from 1929-1939, use = "le" (or even "lo")

=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 2:15 PM, .arpis. = <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
When should= one use a descriptive name as opposed to a non-name? e.g. (using {pindi} b= ecause I don't know enough economics to accurately translate "depr= ession")
{le banli nu pindi} vs {la banli nu pindi}

--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

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--
=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R
=

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