From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDx-tHuBBoE2IQWkg@googlegroups.com Wed May 18 19:16:32 2011 Received: from mail-pw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.160.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QMsmq-00079b-0x; Wed, 18 May 2011 19:16:32 -0700 Received: by pwi1 with SMTP id 1sf1924138pwi.16 for ; Wed, 18 May 2011 19:16:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-smtp :x-ymail-osg:x-yahoo-newman-property:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=U+fBK6BNSIPM9lmoDimIk3q2UNbIy2L1N7c0Yxge+f8=; b=0M/j5EZpplzqpyIsieEiNzA3VBml26Zb5hVFt5I/tNl/780VqwxxbCrCQeEEc0E7sm CrZRvBjUukvV9gqxh9boqRZS9BqVMO3nf8wlaXBMm/nQkKaq8vHI/iLsi1k+CsYti56a wXgXOaxX0uSeVpV6UJVSAwNZYnXH/0douzG0Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-smtp:x-ymail-osg :x-yahoo-newman-property:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=h5+tP3dV8OpwElnpo+nnXJn2qPIBg8X3pKS3IAG1N/o1dYpIe5vxWOFN0eSKUDFxCn UmCIByR/ZifAZBu1vuqVw8PsKCf4ZXESBxXKNQmiLa5vBytKldmMwwrMH/rRe+5X7YlI pUMe6gegVelYHTDWaTghJXp6cCPbg8zEN7w9Y= Received: by 10.68.69.82 with SMTP id c18mr162065pbu.36.1305771377238; Wed, 18 May 2011 19:16:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.36.67 with SMTP id o3ls144861pbj.0.gmail; Wed, 18 May 2011 19:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.30.69 with SMTP id q5mr329573pbh.7.1305771376044; Wed, 18 May 2011 19:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.30.69 with SMTP id q5mr329572pbh.7.1305771375997; Wed, 18 May 2011 19:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp111-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (smtp111-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.136.185.202]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id r3si1020038pbq.5.2011.05.18.19.16.15; Wed, 18 May 2011 19:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.136.185.202 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.136.185.202; Received: (qmail 37662 invoked from network); 19 May 2011 02:16:15 -0000 Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp111-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 18 May 2011 19:16:15 -0700 PDT X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- X-YMail-OSG: j90NC6QVM1n7yUkM9Q.L3rR_ThFfLCRuvqLrz0Xa3qY9qhV MomSl_IcuT_f3L19tskpdrVPP2VCwxnu0P6MkhXnk2GYLDI7Joe1x29QZRHe owpxGxgIM3GevBNLPvb6y.vpAZPYeBsOroxQ0_RaKgctX5ts8OWi1XkvU7Wt fjqbaXaDWHf2Cu25UER.0UYO25MfNNMdatYT_6Ps9XODNaiJSh3KRWgdZ9rM 1yddKXH_JaF9WYrNLExzSm91r_kB61PU8RjIim3xtUJXYENhyBEN5Gn2gWdQ UJzDTxxk.iHiTWSoHD6JRsPuIQHLucSR4kYIfkXb56z9u.Y9O66L2IUFQzxy PaH9f11dAOb6rg2hw.N5RxLFNNqtY3jsHT1S3LNYFEpZVUQglymUGNLHtXs8 ebgRVB7LLIz78IsCehcMuIjhcYeuG9VAg26UaNdx0Y1M7lSDdtKtLZf3Rgnv HnJYnXmlrKQ-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 References: <340069.36890.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <406208.54874.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4DD277B1.3090503@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: <6D8E184B-F0FC-4E91-A28B-A954F0732456@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_8315073_AHnHjkQAANIrTdL37Qx3JRIpy/s Subject: Re: [lojban] Masses Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:18:32 -0500 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.136.185.202 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think I am getting two points confused here. One is whether a motley crew= can pass for a unified whole. The second is whether the members of lo bro= da have to broda individually or possibly something more to the collective = side, even all the way. On the first one, which I thought was the issue, I= now have had later thoughts and think the motley crew is out. I was misled= by the colloquial expression "the boys", which need not refer to only (or= even at all) boys in a standard way. But when I came to apply that to L= ojban, I found that I could not see 4 dogs and 2 cats as lo gerku, however = well-organized they were. That is, everything in lo broda must somehow bro= da/participate in brodaing. On the second, the answer seems already clear:= the members of lo broda broda in an appropriate way. If broda is surroundi= ng a building, then the members are in it collectively; if it is being a st= udent, then individually; and if it is carrying a piano, then someplace wit= hin that closed interval and not worth considering now Sent from my iPad On May 17, 2011, at 17:34, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 10:27 AM, And Rosta wrote: >>=20 >> To try to state essentially the same point in a completely different way= : >> just as brodeing holds of the referentage of "lo broda" to any degree on= the >> coll--dist scale, so does "brodaing". On the plural reference model, "lo >> broda" has many referents, and it needn't be the case that each is brode= ; my >> point it that it also needn't be the case that each is broda. >>=20 >> I'm not sure if you already agree with this point. >=20 > I think I do, yes: "lo broda" does not require that each of its > referents be broda, "lo broda" =3D "zo'e noi ke'a broda", not "zo'e noi > ro ke'a broda". >=20 > It seems though that the most common use of "lo broda" will be for > "zo'e no ke'a broda" and not for "zo'e noi lu'o ke'a broda" or any > other intermediate distribution. In fact for many (most?) broda "zo'e > noi lu'o ke'a broda" may not even be available. How can things be dogs > other than one by one? But when the "noi lu'o ke'a broda" form is > available, I don't think it would be wise to disallow it. I think the > cardinality can only count things that are broda one by one though, so > it would seem that the presence of an inner quantifier forces the "noi > ro ke'a broda" interpretation. >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.