From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARCJ2truBBoE6T5_UA@googlegroups.com Fri May 20 11:04:08 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QNU3Q-0001qe-QG; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:04:07 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf6403892wya.16 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:03:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=dCAPnaWJa+EGT72oT6yjMO69o4WByejPhMs2Q8Xk7WU=; b=HpLQ7c6qx45PnnzjjoC94Jlw5Zd8gwfytTTbXEocfyt+cCC2AyNwXVS+5ZGuRJl1hV AevBEneUXC2Bgyu8zGobrJz7EN1TeUv3Snh9UbY++JPdWL1Eb2XdGe7CRxcTe+Ghvnbl 0fuAnK38KZwZgtn4mJ7khiJA1w6fDRH9nvVYM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=dwHXwt8e/jVhEmZ6SnHBGGbM9wmqko3rVy2Zx/Ysp9wl1RRmPCxIQ+Xe21QgQYLmYa V+eiSuILaD3rtLrpc8UtV+vbeP8meCPAZpfHlEZR2NJxRnROYGA/gXL4OLBmMKkNJMqZ e5Slwroe/X09uCTEG+0tOcQ00nuchXtbQKjPo= Received: by 10.216.230.135 with SMTP id j7mr1520386weq.20.1305914633353; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:03:53 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.9.96 with SMTP id k32ls1200129wbk.2.gmail; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.7.85 with SMTP id c21mr322190wbc.11.1305914632312; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.7.85 with SMTP id c21mr322189wbc.11.1305914632289; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f54.google.com (mail-ww0-f54.google.com [74.125.82.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g17si2152213wbe.3.2011.05.20.11.03.52 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 May 2011 11:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.54; Received: by mail-ww0-f54.google.com with SMTP id 20so3884293wwd.23 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:03:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.140.140 with SMTP id e12mr818122wej.69.1305914632137; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.35.207 with HTTP; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:03:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <217730.28216.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <217730.28216.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:03:51 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6d7ed32c16b5f04a3b8f1ee --0016e6d7ed32c16b5f04a3b8f1ee Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On the discussion about pi PA mei: ignore x3s and consider the predicate: se te pi mu mei This is "x1 is a set whose 1/2 members are x2". This makes no sense; you can't have a set with cardinality 1/2. I think part of the problem here is that we've never resolved the issue of masses (here these are not technically masses, but we are considering one object and removing some of its components, leaving behind something that resembles the original object in some clear sense) with respect to set theory. (At least as far as I know, maybe this was handled at some point.) The ad hoc solution would be to remove the relation to sets from mei altogether; set {lo se mei} to be zi'o in all cases and leave it at that. The better solution would be to figure out, in a formal sense, what exactly about "a can of oranges" causes it to make sense to say "half of a can of oranges", and more importantly what makes "a half a person" make only figurative (or, I suppose, cannibalistic, if you're into that sort of thing) sense. This really has rather little to do with {lo no}, though. mu'o mi'e .latros. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6d7ed32c16b5f04a3b8f1ee Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On the discussion about pi PA mei: ignore x3s and consider the predicate:se te pi mu mei
This is "x1 is a set whose 1/2 members are x2&quo= t;. This makes no sense; you can't have a set with cardinality 1/2. I t= hink part of the problem here is that we've never resolved the issue of= masses (here these are not technically masses, but we are considering one = object and removing some of its components, leaving behind something that r= esembles the original object in some clear sense) with respect to set theor= y. (At least as far as I know, maybe this was handled at some point.) The a= d hoc solution would be to remove the relation to sets from mei altogether;= set {lo se mei} to be zi'o in all cases and leave it at that. The bett= er solution would be to figure out, in a formal sense, what exactly about &= quot;a can of oranges" causes it to make sense to say "half of a = can of oranges", and more importantly what makes "a half a person= " make only figurative (or, I suppose, cannibalistic, if you're in= to that sort of thing) sense.

This really has rather little to do with {lo no}, though.

mu'= ;o mi'e .latros.

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