From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhC93druBBoEy7J0nQ@googlegroups.com Fri May 20 11:11:24 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QNUAS-00025I-Jk; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:11:24 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf6898224qwh.16 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:11:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=JO1u1CqZgJ50tBYn+KkNHTfayWYn4aJFlMdi5c0MY7s=; b=VHNj0uPjq3G/T19Ra+Wp3lz7E66ThKny6AT1EOq0Kt73mpq6f8x0283oax4+79/jYi WNOLy7LWxEFgQmt81N/Vv+MmvfetYysKAWzrOHyz4JpvquTpuRh1djaAaBFK9UwPy36P Ar2DE0DJO9T21WgcRO6gxZggHlK64ICxMtL1E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=eb4MES+A3dRECPYztU0qddh+KsT0zvnyYkc2hqdiay//vEUbYyS0O6qhG0rn+11Lhl Nm8RVxc6wv6ctck82etK+IZ2tZWmNDtamI9fpQg6S7nXTY4qwJO4p2tRbC9E0MIbJsJP hOtNtfRvN/fek3lmAAEYVsOZalOzPa0Eg4+/I= Received: by 10.229.126.148 with SMTP id c20mr698080qcs.22.1305915069931; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:11:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.173.157 with SMTP id p29ls818758qcz.1.gmail; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.105.138 with SMTP id t10mr534173qco.13.1305915069358; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.105.138 with SMTP id t10mr534172qco.13.1305915069331; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f51.google.com (mail-qw0-f51.google.com [209.85.216.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fz1si2054084qcb.2.2011.05.20.11.11.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 May 2011 11:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.51; Received: by mail-qw0-f51.google.com with SMTP id 7so2144816qwf.38 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:11:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.119.151 with SMTP id z23mr3663771qcq.2.1305915069127; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.62.78 with HTTP; Fri, 20 May 2011 11:11:09 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <217730.28216.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 14:11:09 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd5c93acd5b2504a3b90b6c --000e0cd5c93acd5b2504a3b90b6c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I meant "fuzzy set theory" rather than fuzzy logic, in case that wasn't obvious. On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Actually, in fuzzy logic, a member can indeed be only "half in" a set. > Therefore cardinalities of other-than-non-negative integers has a place in > set theory. No reason why lojbaniss shouldn't be able to talk about it. > > --gejyspa > > > > On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> On the discussion about pi PA mei: ignore x3s and consider the predicate: >> se te pi mu mei >> This is "x1 is a set whose 1/2 members are x2". This makes no sense; you >> can't have a set with cardinality 1/2. I think part of the problem here is >> that we've never resolved the issue of masses (here these are not >> technically masses, but we are considering one object and removing some of >> its components, leaving behind something that resembles the original object >> in some clear sense) with respect to set theory. (At least as far as I know, >> maybe this was handled at some point.) The ad hoc solution would be to >> remove the relation to sets from mei altogether; set {lo se mei} to be zi'o >> in all cases and leave it at that. The better solution would be to figure >> out, in a formal sense, what exactly about "a can of oranges" causes it to >> make sense to say "half of a can of oranges", and more importantly what >> makes "a half a person" make only figurative (or, I suppose, cannibalistic, >> if you're into that sort of thing) sense. >> >> This really has rather little to do with {lo no}, though. >> >> mu'o mi'e .latros. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd5c93acd5b2504a3b90b6c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0=A0=A0 I meant "fuzzy set theory" rather than= fuzzy logic, in case that wasn't obvious.

On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Michael Turnian= sky <mturnian= sky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 Actually, in fuzzy logic, a member can indeed be only "half i= n" a set.=A0 Therefore cardinalities of other-than-non-negative intege= rs has a place in set theory. No reason why lojbaniss shouldn't be able= to talk about it.
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
On the discussion about pi PA me= i: ignore x3s and consider the predicate:
se te pi mu mei
This is &qu= ot;x1 is a set whose 1/2 members are x2". This makes no sense; you can= 't have a set with cardinality 1/2. I think part of the problem here is= that we've never resolved the issue of masses (here these are not tech= nically masses, but we are considering one object and removing some of its = components, leaving behind something that resembles the original object in = some clear sense) with respect to set theory. (At least as far as I know, m= aybe this was handled at some point.) The ad hoc solution would be to remov= e the relation to sets from mei altogether; set {lo se mei} to be zi'o = in all cases and leave it at that. The better solution would be to figure o= ut, in a formal sense, what exactly about "a can of oranges" caus= es it to make sense to say "half of a can of oranges", and more i= mportantly what makes "a half a person" make only figurative (or,= I suppose, cannibalistic, if you're into that sort of thing) sense.
This really has rather little to do with {lo no}, though.

mu'= ;o mi'e .latros.=20

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