From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARCK-druBBoE_Qx8ug@googlegroups.com Fri May 20 12:10:17 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QNV5R-0004Ub-PP; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:10:17 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf6485104wya.16 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:10:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=/Nm7wsR0ro0Fbgm3Z3+Depliasec77SlfP9cj7sMPv4=; b=2vPu5vNM19AQReHoSCqRd/0dh6ZVIsHViy4v4NuvXH+k2LZrUJ8uH+zhDpwx6N72NR buQyxmSo8P14XARczdOBq0mwvmVZGPIpUJ5eSEnLkxkt7Qmc3ltaOAfMr944xmVOJwP/ Os0MVD4OP7dsJwGOtR1Li2+FltAsgyHBhSRIU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=p8UXYwmd6UfF5jSurIlx4pxXqShgmHH+8qXioKVKZtOVoKuVqLQ/KhAwDecZcO3P4J DxQdvy6vWpxHskluMfNYqNaIoNLLLpTc7tsHMptL8UGgWKXuCz4cE9DE7A5ElN37kOxW AY2cqb937/34mbEZtUZ5aOUHYJdf++cA6RbwQ= Received: by 10.216.206.5 with SMTP id k5mr1532545weo.16.1305918602290; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:10:02 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.9.96 with SMTP id k32ls1217467wbk.2.gmail; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.173.4 with SMTP id n4mr64096wbz.14.1305918601254; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.173.4 with SMTP id n4mr64095wbz.14.1305918601220; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f54.google.com (mail-ww0-f54.google.com [74.125.82.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d13si2201274wby.2.2011.05.20.12.10.01 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 May 2011 12:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.54; Received: by mail-ww0-f54.google.com with SMTP id 20so3935697wwd.23 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:10:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.6.27 with SMTP id 27mr4260936wem.69.1305918600978; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.35.207 with HTTP; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:10:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <217730.28216.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 15:10:00 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015176f1bae51226104a3b9dec0 --0015176f1bae51226104a3b9dec0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Yes, except if broda is "x1 is a can of oranges", I don't think {lo se pi mu mei broda} is a fuzzy set at all. Half a can of oranges is another can of oranges with its contents cut in half, so it forms {lo se pa mei broda}. (On the other hand this may ultimately be malgli/malrarbau, which would beg the question of how to reasonably briefly express "half a can of oranges" in non-malgli/malrarbau terms.) You're right, though, that {se te pi mu mei} does make formal sense, it just has no similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever. Consequently (assuming {mei} still maintains all its places) {pi mu mei} also has no similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever. Good catch though. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Actually, in fuzzy logic, a member can indeed be only "half in" a set. > Therefore cardinalities of other-than-non-negative integers has a place in > set theory. No reason why lojbaniss shouldn't be able to talk about it. > > --gejyspa > > > > On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> On the discussion about pi PA mei: ignore x3s and consider the predicate: >> se te pi mu mei >> This is "x1 is a set whose 1/2 members are x2". This makes no sense; you >> can't have a set with cardinality 1/2. I think part of the problem here is >> that we've never resolved the issue of masses (here these are not >> technically masses, but we are considering one object and removing some of >> its components, leaving behind something that resembles the original object >> in some clear sense) with respect to set theory. (At least as far as I know, >> maybe this was handled at some point.) The ad hoc solution would be to >> remove the relation to sets from mei altogether; set {lo se mei} to be zi'o >> in all cases and leave it at that. The better solution would be to figure >> out, in a formal sense, what exactly about "a can of oranges" causes it to >> make sense to say "half of a can of oranges", and more importantly what >> makes "a half a person" make only figurative (or, I suppose, cannibalistic, >> if you're into that sort of thing) sense. >> >> This really has rather little to do with {lo no}, though. >> >> mu'o mi'e .latros. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015176f1bae51226104a3b9dec0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, except if broda is "x1 is a can of oranges", I don't thi= nk {lo se pi mu mei broda} is a fuzzy set at all. Half a can of oranges is = another can of oranges with its contents cut in half, so it forms {lo se pa= mei broda}. (On the other hand this may ultimately be malgli/malrarbau, wh= ich would beg the question of how to reasonably briefly express "half = a can of oranges" in non-malgli/malrarbau terms.)

You're right, though, that {se te pi mu mei} does make formal sense= , it just has no similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever. Conseque= ntly (assuming {mei} still maintains all its places) {pi mu mei} also has n= o similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever.

Good catch though.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.= com> wrote:
=A0 Actually, in fuzz= y logic, a member can indeed be only "half in" a set.=A0 Therefor= e cardinalities of other-than-non-negative integers has a place in set theo= ry. No reason why lojbaniss shouldn't be able to talk about it.
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Fri, May 20= , 2011 at 2:03 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>= wrote:
On the discussion about pi PA mei: ignore x3s and consider the pre= dicate:
se te pi mu mei
This is "x1 is a set whose 1/2 members are x2"= . This makes no sense; you can't have a set with cardinality 1/2. I thi= nk part of the problem here is that we've never resolved the issue of m= asses (here these are not technically masses, but we are considering one ob= ject and removing some of its components, leaving behind something that res= embles the original object in some clear sense) with respect to set theory.= (At least as far as I know, maybe this was handled at some point.) The ad = hoc solution would be to remove the relation to sets from mei altogether; s= et {lo se mei} to be zi'o in all cases and leave it at that. The better= solution would be to figure out, in a formal sense, what exactly about &qu= ot;a can of oranges" causes it to make sense to say "half of a ca= n of oranges", and more importantly what makes "a half a person&q= uot; make only figurative (or, I suppose, cannibalistic, if you're into= that sort of thing) sense.

This really has rather little to do with {lo no}, though.

mu'= ;o mi'e .latros.=20

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