From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhCj_NruBBoEdWmL8Q@googlegroups.com Fri May 20 12:17:06 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QNVC2-0004gy-Gj; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:17:06 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf1600897vws.16 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:16:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=+uSU398Gz71zLSU7LCeDnVCTq+Z065M7GZ+3WDq4JTo=; b=SmOfe1e03GDsxJ+KtK5xSl7Zkl8mjg0q1EFc6OL6VaGg4rN3W/oPElVDgzL2m6KEI1 D5HIEy1XD5ykn5u/+Wp2+O0axTlBnaavta1Q/h3hH6dJ2a1W54eeNjFpumLJGGKunajq 1TjLkfXlDQ+tNm0awKf0vFVL+mlws9bUmHRCc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=OD849AAK1uQzTrem2TyBl843+963PCAzEJ/jHrnfHjdKJsBlkX7Yi+ub1nqo1AxHCL LBuI/8kwicRmrGa328QSwzJvO3lwPNzgYT+zhcDty+P3H5Ukn2ECl2dBjdD/aNNgIJXp zXkRGewiwTcGGoEg2i+ht2CafLt9liybgdszw= Received: by 10.220.148.6 with SMTP id n6mr208176vcv.20.1305919011869; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:16:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.96.226 with SMTP id dv2ls917433vdb.1.gmail; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.174.211 with SMTP id bu19mr4179vdc.2.1305919011135; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.174.211 with SMTP id bu19mr4178vdc.2.1305919011094; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f182.google.com (mail-qy0-f182.google.com [209.85.216.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id x8si1870163vdt.3.2011.05.20.12.16.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 May 2011 12:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.182; Received: by qyk27 with SMTP id 27so2411656qyk.20 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:16:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.119.151 with SMTP id z23mr11687qcq.2.1305919010458; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.62.78 with HTTP; Fri, 20 May 2011 12:16:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <217730.28216.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 15:16:50 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd5c93ab94e9c04a3b9f62d --000e0cd5c93ab94e9c04a3b9f62d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, my canned oranges are fuzzy, then! (I probably should have used them before the sell-by date. They'd've been less fuzzy). :-D On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > Yes, except if broda is "x1 is a can of oranges", I don't think {lo se pi > mu mei broda} is a fuzzy set at all. Half a can of oranges is another can of > oranges with its contents cut in half, so it forms {lo se pa mei broda}. (On > the other hand this may ultimately be malgli/malrarbau, which would beg the > question of how to reasonably briefly express "half a can of oranges" in > non-malgli/malrarbau terms.) > > You're right, though, that {se te pi mu mei} does make formal sense, it > just has no similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever. Consequently > (assuming {mei} still maintains all its places) {pi mu mei} also has no > similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever. > > Good catch though. > > > mu'o mi'e .latros. > > On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Michael Turniansky < > mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Actually, in fuzzy logic, a member can indeed be only "half in" a >> set. Therefore cardinalities of other-than-non-negative integers has a >> place in set theory. No reason why lojbaniss shouldn't be able to talk about >> it. >> >> --gejyspa >> >> >> >> On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >>> On the discussion about pi PA mei: ignore x3s and consider the >>> predicate: >>> se te pi mu mei >>> This is "x1 is a set whose 1/2 members are x2". This makes no sense; you >>> can't have a set with cardinality 1/2. I think part of the problem here is >>> that we've never resolved the issue of masses (here these are not >>> technically masses, but we are considering one object and removing some of >>> its components, leaving behind something that resembles the original object >>> in some clear sense) with respect to set theory. (At least as far as I know, >>> maybe this was handled at some point.) The ad hoc solution would be to >>> remove the relation to sets from mei altogether; set {lo se mei} to be zi'o >>> in all cases and leave it at that. The better solution would be to figure >>> out, in a formal sense, what exactly about "a can of oranges" causes it to >>> make sense to say "half of a can of oranges", and more importantly what >>> makes "a half a person" make only figurative (or, I suppose, cannibalistic, >>> if you're into that sort of thing) sense. >>> >>> This really has rather little to do with {lo no}, though. >>> >>> mu'o mi'e .latros. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0cd5c93ab94e9c04a3b9f62d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0=A0 Well, my canned oranges are fuzzy, then!=A0(I = probably should have used them before the sell-by date.=A0 They'd'v= e been less fuzzy).
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 :-D


=A0
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@g= mail.com> wrote:
Yes, except if broda is "x1= is a can of oranges", I don't think {lo se pi mu mei broda} is a = fuzzy set at all. Half a can of oranges is another can of oranges with its = contents cut in half, so it forms {lo se pa mei broda}. (On the other hand = this may ultimately be malgli/malrarbau, which would beg the question of ho= w to reasonably briefly express "half a can of oranges" in non-ma= lgli/malrarbau terms.)

You're right, though, that {se te pi mu mei} does make formal sense= , it just has no similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever. Conseque= ntly (assuming {mei} still maintains all its places) {pi mu mei} also has n= o similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever.

Good catch though.=20


mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Michael Turnian= sky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 Actually, in fuzzy logic, a member can indeed be only "half i= n" a set.=A0 Therefore cardinalities of other-than-non-negative intege= rs has a place in set theory. No reason why lojbaniss shouldn't be able= to talk about it.
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail= .com> wrote:
On the discussion about pi PA mei: ignore x3s and consider the predica= te:
se te pi mu mei
This is "x1 is a set whose 1/2 members are x= 2". This makes no sense; you can't have a set with cardinality 1/2= . I think part of the problem here is that we've never resolved the iss= ue of masses (here these are not technically masses, but we are considering= one object and removing some of its components, leaving behind something t= hat resembles the original object in some clear sense) with respect to set = theory. (At least as far as I know, maybe this was handled at some point.) = The ad hoc solution would be to remove the relation to sets from mei altoge= ther; set {lo se mei} to be zi'o in all cases and leave it at that. The= better solution would be to figure out, in a formal sense, what exactly ab= out "a can of oranges" causes it to make sense to say "half = of a can of oranges", and more importantly what makes "a half a p= erson" make only figurative (or, I suppose, cannibalistic, if you'= re into that sort of thing) sense.

This really has rather little to do with {lo no}, though.

mu'= ;o mi'e .latros.

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