From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDp7NvuBBoE3j8hYg@googlegroups.com Fri May 20 16:17:13 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QNYwP-0005OY-Dx; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:17:13 -0700 Received: by wya21 with SMTP id 21sf6765665wya.16 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:17:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=WtEuzjLPM47eDQGk4hygLRGGrSRqm54E29PIAt+mr/0=; b=m8upY/OcKaVa+ndand5neOlHtLP59TFpGxbnW/Ko2hIt4GyrSwBxPp5fyIV0Jo7LtC 0AOfp4MZ0EV/98WmoYkbf26tguhYp1N8yds/SVehtXWp13OPhggzYhkyaTHs2xTDESo3 uQNP8wdsGMMURbu0ckv+W+F/lMO2A/XkC9NJg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=HIoVJNBK0qN9DfFxq2BdFDsykkBWOCcdBfP6gpzC9iLi4/9cQ6+644ziWZFD0pd0rS jbrNLLKcJRj1zRNbZN4T3x+Iv5bxw+CD+8BvRzYPZ9WQ2hsJku0UEEFofLGihkdwdGd0 gH7oOV/Mwfgw0J58HBFv7Q/UQqhKu2BBks8F8= Received: by 10.217.4.16 with SMTP id t16mr69970wes.28.1305933417992; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:16:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.9.96 with SMTP id k32ls1275764wbk.2.gmail; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.54.6 with SMTP id o6mr13293wbg.9.1305933416811; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.54.6 with SMTP id o6mr13292wbg.9.1305933416775; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f170.google.com (mail-wy0-f170.google.com [74.125.82.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d13si2382895wby.2.2011.05.20.16.16.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 20 May 2011 16:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.170; Received: by wyb34 with SMTP id 34so3446020wyb.29 for ; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:16:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.240.202 with SMTP id e52mr146295wer.84.1305933416407; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:16:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.35.207 with HTTP; Fri, 20 May 2011 16:16:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <921420.66129.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <217730.28216.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <921420.66129.qm@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 19:16:56 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e0cb4e38500c62a36704a3bd5194 --e0cb4e38500c62a36704a3bd5194 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 "Half of a can of oranges", in English, is not half of the oranges in a full can; it is a thing, possibly a mass, comprised of both the can and half of the oranges that were in it. (If I ask you to give me the half a can of oranges that's in the fridge (perhaps to ensure you don't give me the other one that is unopened), I don't expect you to take them out of the can and give them to me.) Consequently it is not {pi mu lo }, but possibly {pi mu lo joi }. I don't think there is any way to obtain this via purely numerical means, which makes me suspect that the syntax of "half a can of oranges" is ultimately malgli/malrarbau. mu'o mi'e .latros. On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 4:12 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > It sounds like time for a stroll through all the various descriptors and > what they might mean nowadays. I'm not going to do that because my views are > probably eccentric, but it does seem useful to take care of a few things. > {lo}, {le} and {la} ex[ressions all refer to things (in Lojban's generous > sense), things that are (somehow) or are called or are named by what comes > after. Sentences involving them say that these things (including one thing > but not no thing) somehow have the property ascribed to them. Parallel to > these are two other sets, one adding -i and one adding -'i, for the "mass" > and the (C-)set of the things referred to by the bare forms. I assume > C-sets are not a problem, except that a C-set of things can have 0 > members, in which case it does no longer correspond to a bare form. "Mass" > is a horrible word in Logjam history, having meant untold numbers of things > over the years. At the this point, the most useful thing to be done with it > is to take it as the guaranteed collective sense of {lo}, etc. Maybe > someday a useful notion of mass will get specified and we will work with it, > but it hasn't happened so far. > > The point of "half a can of oranges" is that it means "half of the oranges > in the can" (however many they are), and that is simply (assuming > veridicality) {pi mu lo [oranges in a can]}, a no problematic expression, > unlike the suggestion {lo pi mu [oranges in a can]}. > > Unless you're really good at fuzziness, it is best not to draw anything > from it for ordinary Lojban (which does have fuzzy numbers when needed). > "This can of oranges is in the set of cans of oranges to value 0.5" doesn't > halve the can nor the oranges, it at most says this is not an absolutely > perfect specimen of a can of oranges (by whatever criteria are in use) -- > and making the 0.5 fuzzy doesn't help a bit. > > It is probably worth noting that the discussion of i9nternal quantifiers in > CLL is at least misleading. It is not the case that the internal quantifier > says how many broda there are altogether, but only the number of those who > are of current interest. This is clearest with {le}, which relies overtly > on a selection, and hardest to see in the case of {lo'i}, but applies across > the board. > > The word I forgot last time around is {zo'u} > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Michael Turniansky > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Fri, May 20, 2011 2:16:50 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] "lo no" > > Well, my canned oranges are fuzzy, then! (I probably should have used > them before the sell-by date. They'd've been less fuzzy). > :-D > > > > On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > >> Yes, except if broda is "x1 is a can of oranges", I don't think {lo se pi >> mu mei broda} is a fuzzy set at all. Half a can of oranges is another can of >> oranges with its contents cut in half, so it forms {lo se pa mei broda}. (On >> the other hand this may ultimately be malgli/malrarbau, which would beg the >> question of how to reasonably briefly express "half a can of oranges" in >> non-malgli/malrarbau terms.) >> >> You're right, though, that {se te pi mu mei} does make formal sense, it >> just has no similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever. Consequently >> (assuming {mei} still maintains all its places) {pi mu mei} also has no >> similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever. >> >> Good catch though. >> >> >> mu'o mi'e .latros. >> >> On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Michael Turniansky < >> mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Actually, in fuzzy logic, a member can indeed be only "half in" a >>> set. Therefore cardinalities of other-than-non-negative integers has a >>> place in set theory. No reason why lojbaniss shouldn't be able to talk about >>> it. >>> >>> --gejyspa >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: >>> >>>> On the discussion about pi PA mei: ignore x3s and consider the >>>> predicate: >>>> se te pi mu mei >>>> This is "x1 is a set whose 1/2 members are x2". This makes no sense; you >>>> can't have a set with cardinality 1/2. I think part of the problem here is >>>> that we've never resolved the issue of masses (here these are not >>>> technically masses, but we are considering one object and removing some of >>>> its components, leaving behind something that resembles the original object >>>> in some clear sense) with respect to set theory. (At least as far as I know, >>>> maybe this was handled at some point.) The ad hoc solution would be to >>>> remove the relation to sets from mei altogether; set {lo se mei} to be zi'o >>>> in all cases and leave it at that. The better solution would be to figure >>>> out, in a formal sense, what exactly about "a can of oranges" causes it to >>>> make sense to say "half of a can of oranges", and more importantly what >>>> makes "a half a person" make only figurative (or, I suppose, cannibalistic, >>>> if you're into that sort of thing) sense. >>>> >>>> This really has rather little to do with {lo no}, though. >>>> >>>> mu'o mi'e .latros. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --e0cb4e38500c62a36704a3bd5194 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Half of a can of oranges", in English, is not half of the orange= s in a full can; it is a thing, possibly a mass, comprised of both the can = and half of the oranges that were in it. (If I ask you to give me the half = a can of oranges that's in the fridge (perhaps to ensure you don't = give me the other one that is unopened), I don't expect you to take the= m out of the can and give them to me.)

Consequently it is not {pi mu lo <oranges in a can>}, but possibl= y {pi mu lo <oranges in a can> joi <the can>}. I don't thin= k there is any way to obtain this via purely numerical means, which makes m= e suspect that the syntax of "half a can of oranges" is ultimatel= y malgli/malrarbau.

mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Fri, Ma= y 20, 2011 at 4:12 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
It sounds like time for a stroll through all=A0 the various d= escriptors and what they might mean nowadays. I'm not going to do that = because my views are probably eccentric, but it does seem useful to take ca= re of a few things. {lo}, {le} and {la} ex[ressions all refer to things (in= Lojban's generous sense), things that are (somehow) or are called or a= re named by what comes after.=A0 Sentences involving them say that these th= ings (including one thing but not no thing) somehow have the property ascri= bed to them.=A0 Parallel to these are two other sets, one adding -i and one= adding -'i, for the "mass" and the (C-)set of the things ref= erred to by the bare forms.=A0 I assume C-sets are not a problem, except th= at a C-set of things can have 0 members, in which case it does no longer correspond to a bare form.=A0 &qu= ot;Mass" is a horrible word in Logjam history, having meant untold num= bers of things over the years.=A0 At the this point, the most useful thing = to be done with it is to take it as the guaranteed collective sense of {lo}= , etc.=A0 Maybe someday a useful notion of mass will get specified and we w= ill work with it, but it hasn't happened so far.

The point of "half a can of oranges" is that it means "h= alf of the oranges in the can" (however many they are), and that is si= mply (assuming veridicality) {pi mu lo [oranges in a can]}, a no problemati= c expression, unlike the suggestion {lo pi mu [oranges in a can]}.

Unless you're really good at fuzziness, it is best not to draw anyt= hing from it for ordinary Lojban (which does have fuzzy numbers when needed= ).=A0 "This can of oranges is in the set of cans of oranges to value 0= .5" doesn't halve the can nor the oranges, it at most says this is not an absolutely perfect specimen of a can of oranges (= by whatever criteria are in use) -- and making the 0.5 fuzzy doesn't he= lp a bit.=A0

It is probably worth noting that the discussion of i9n= ternal quantifiers in CLL is at least misleading.=A0 It is not the case tha= t the internal quantifier says how many broda there are altogether, but onl= y the number of those=A0 who are of current interest.=A0 This is clearest w= ith {le}, which relies overtly on a selection, and hardest to see in the ca= se of {lo'i}, but applies across the board.

The word I forgot last time around is {zo'u}
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, May 20, 2011 2:16= :50 PM

Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no"

=A0=A0 Well, my canned oranges are fuzzy, then!=A0(I = probably should have used them before the sell-by date.=A0 They'd'v= e been less fuzzy).
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 :-D


=A0
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, except if broda is "x1 is a= can of oranges", I don't think {lo se pi mu mei broda} is a fuzzy= set at all. Half a can of oranges is another can of oranges with its conte= nts cut in half, so it forms {lo se pa mei broda}. (On the other hand this = may ultimately be malgli/malrarbau, which would beg the question of how to = reasonably briefly express "half a can of oranges" in non-malgli/= malrarbau terms.)

You're right, though, that {se te pi mu mei} does make formal sense= , it just has no similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever. Conseque= ntly (assuming {mei} still maintains all its places) {pi mu mei} also has n= o similarity to its natlang counterpart whatsoever.

Good catch though.=20


mu'o mi'e .latros.

On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:10 PM, Michael Turnian= sky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
=A0 Actually, in fuzzy logic, a member can indeed be only "half i= n" a set.=A0 Therefore cardinalities of other-than-non-negative intege= rs has a place in set theory. No reason why lojbaniss shouldn't be able= to talk about it.
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa


=A0
On Fri, May 20, 2011 at 2:03 PM, Ian Johnson <b= lindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
On the discussion about pi PA mei: ignore x3s and consider the predica= te:
se te pi mu mei
This is "x1 is a set whose 1/2 members are x= 2". This makes no sense; you can't have a set with cardinality 1/2= . I think part of the problem here is that we've never resolved the iss= ue of masses (here these are not technically masses, but we are considering= one object and removing some of its components, leaving behind something t= hat resembles the original object in some clear sense) with respect to set = theory. (At least as far as I know, maybe this was handled at some point.) = The ad hoc solution would be to remove the relation to sets from mei altoge= ther; set {lo se mei} to be zi'o in all cases and leave it at that. The= better solution would be to figure out, in a formal sense, what exactly ab= out "a can of oranges" causes it to make sense to say "half = of a can of oranges", and more importantly what makes "a half a p= erson" make only figurative (or, I suppose, cannibalistic, if you're into that sort of thing) sense.

This really has rather little to do with {lo no}, though.

mu'= ;o mi'e .latros.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at= http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle Groups "lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email= to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--e0cb4e38500c62a36704a3bd5194--