From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDHmfftBBoEOY3FFw@googlegroups.com Sun May 01 14:12:54 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QGdwf-00019e-9N; Sun, 01 May 2011 14:12:54 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf18983254qwh.16 for ; Sun, 01 May 2011 14:12:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=nm8SKbevEIAFOkZst/hs2qJdRKmHhkexVHnkTZlbZbo=; b=Gtb7PLUCrE8ZrolsTh/fLbJZsFFydzPq2+uJ9zUeP3seg/vrUNKrnCq4LLy+L6wv3j Ic4Vcpa+SR72kdhWfKDZiP598EBMvPhr+UV1uOu1y/23A4V9deBMBd4RzKCa9B1eJGJW cNjkpf8rkMqrxbyiM0jdS9EQOR9OB3JCSi/Cg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=gy21/qyAz+E8IkOrOQ/9SfnRfluDFSRE0/c8Bf8MDPk3w7OiXtZ5AT/jsSoIdQ7Dvy 3+klm8YFtHophJ2tjKDPe65M/DcWu8ZQ2L/2VWPDKZnk++Qwmyyk1zo+7CGC6iPxHgjl GQLDNOuw28hBKkhbpi+sj2H/ECUKE7vRMYiHU= Received: by 10.224.189.200 with SMTP id df8mr751633qab.8.1304284359493; Sun, 01 May 2011 14:12:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.172.87 with SMTP id k23ls771740qaz.4.gmail; Sun, 01 May 2011 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.203.195 with SMTP id fj3mr389560qab.0.1304284358834; Sun, 01 May 2011 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.203.195 with SMTP id fj3mr389559qab.0.1304284358824; Sun, 01 May 2011 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f46.google.com (mail-vw0-f46.google.com [209.85.212.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w19si1145051qco.3.2011.05.01.14.12.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 01 May 2011 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.46; Received: by vws1 with SMTP id 1so5920569vws.33 for ; Sun, 01 May 2011 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.111.71 with SMTP id ig7mr2236783vdb.209.1304284358543; Sun, 01 May 2011 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.185.167 with HTTP; Sun, 1 May 2011 14:12:38 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 18:12:38 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and default quantifiers From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > So I was thinking about this earlier today and came to a realization. =A0= If > xorlo says that there are no default quantifiers for {lo} then wouldn't {= no} > be a reasonable possibility for the assumed quantifier? No, there isn't an assumed quantifier either. > e.g. {mi citka lo plise}. =A0{lo plise} has no outer quantifier (implicit= or > explicit), but I suspect that most people will pick up from context that = I > in fact {citka pa lo su'opa plise} or something like it. It will depend on the context, but as an isolated sentence I would translate it as "I eat apples". It doesn't even have to be about any specific occasion. I suspect that "I eat exactly one of the at least one apples" is not one of the most common interpretations. >=A0Furthermore, if I > said {mi nelci lo nu tcidu .i mi ponse lo cukta} I would think that peopl= e > would read that as something like {mi ponse so'o lo so'i cukta} or someth= ing > like it. I would read it as "I like reading. I own books." I don't think I would read it as "I own several of many books". > So if context can change the assumptions that the tecusku makes about the > secusku, then couldn't one of those assumptions be {no lo cukta} since th= ere > is no proscribed default? No, because "no" contains a negation. If you say "mi citka" you can't expect people to understand that you mean "mi na citka". Similarly, if you say "mi citka lo plise" you can't expect anyone to understand that you mean "mi citka no lo plise". > Either the default quantifiers of {lo} should be {su'o} or it should be > reasonable to assume that {mi xebni lo nu tcidu .ija'ebo mi ponse lo cukt= a} > could be understood as {mi xebni lo nu tcidu .ija'ebo mi ponse no lo cukt= a}. But "lo" has no quantifiers, default or otherwise. Why do you want to force one on it? > =A0In my mind the latter is an unsafe assumption and I suspect that most > tecusku would respond with something like {.ue do cusku lo du'u brodado n= a > nelci lo nu tcidu .iku'i do ji'a cusku lo nu do ponse lo cukta .i va'o lo= nu > broda kei mi sruma lo nu na brode}. =A0Therefore, I argue that even if th= e > grammar claims that {lo} has no default quantifiers, people read lojban w= ith > the assumption that {lo}'s implicit quantifiers are {su'o}. > Thoughts? I at least don't. Here is an example where "su'o" fails: lo ci nanmu ca'o bevri lo pipno. "Three men are carrying a piano." It would not occur to me to conclude that at least one of the three men is carrying a piano, my assumption would be that they are all three doing it together. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.