From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDBqeTuBBoEhcXBMw@googlegroups.com Sun May 22 06:51:13 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QO93k-00037k-Do; Sun, 22 May 2011 06:51:13 -0700 Received: by qyk36 with SMTP id 36sf9003122qyk.16 for ; Sun, 22 May 2011 06:51:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ifyQkQCJ0PJWsyUvNPD5tkRBjcxpdiblXswF5DtjMho=; b=kdvJxlP5CXVJwvAHqTmEoCAZBU8hLZAdIHthEwChsI5VCS5Fo71qg3IIYlxl1FEJ1M 44ikVbYujFrFI1iNwHTIyJ5HS+eQuf1CGkajEnJ8+wX+PssMHiWIQC8DhIP2TKH8n0lq KZAe1qv9dG0OkNLRgnABAuQ/5VK0oWpDzot3c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=KzpqaTP5l29+AjggnOKf7DLBqQxaLh2StIm7b0wBVIbOFWGKIRo3p+0SMxVjLpmF2q yVaQa3GiD6VkZaWlNpp7t6XqU1J77WKk2Sut6uRVDywKEfmdAMfGB4x2KU6Tu7G+SPgb M6ZqVZhJp+AqvJlyGiuzNTrDUlWKUEUQzjRlk= Received: by 10.224.124.82 with SMTP id t18mr163971qar.22.1306072257782; Sun, 22 May 2011 06:50:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.175.74 with SMTP id w10ls652615qaz.0.gmail; Sun, 22 May 2011 06:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.203.195 with SMTP id fj3mr501089qab.0.1306072256082; Sun, 22 May 2011 06:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.203.195 with SMTP id fj3mr501088qab.0.1306072256066; Sun, 22 May 2011 06:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f45.google.com (mail-qw0-f45.google.com [209.85.216.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m42si3535516qcz.1.2011.05.22.06.50.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 22 May 2011 06:50:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.45; Received: by qwj8 with SMTP id 8so2920435qwj.4 for ; Sun, 22 May 2011 06:50:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.61.7 with SMTP id r7mr1056134qch.20.1306072255825; Sun, 22 May 2011 06:50:55 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.29.74 with HTTP; Sun, 22 May 2011 06:50:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 14:50:55 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 20 May 2011 13:41, Michael Turniansky wrote: >> > no da broda --> ro da na'e broda >> > ro da na broda -> su'o da na'e broda >> >> >> "no da broda" has the implicit bridi affirmer, "ja'a"; why would this >> binary NA become a non-binary (scalar) NAhE rather than the binary >> opposite ("na")? Consider the following non-metaphoric pair: >> >> no tanjo cu [ja'a] glare --> ro tanjo cu na'e glare >> > > > =A0 It wouldn't.=A0 It really is naku broda.=A0 But since it=A0seemed obv= ious from > your original transformations you wouldn't understand the subtle distinct= ion > between "na" and "naku", I gave you the logical equivalent:=A0 "There is = no X > that is broda" <--> "all X are non-broda" (I may not be fully aware of the distinction you make between "na" and "naku" for this particular case, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't understand your explanation of it.) The English expression "There is no ..." can lead to the following confusio= n: X that is broda (term) =3D zo'e noi ke'a broda =3D lo broda no X that is broda (term) =3D no lo broda There is no X that is broda. (proposition) =3D no lo broda cu zasti all X (term) =3D ro da All X are non-broda. (proposition) =3D ro da na'e broda no lo broda cu zasti =3D(?) ro da na'e broda The problem is the ambiguous predicate "there is (no)". Presumably you meant "does not exit": X that is broda does not exist. =3D lo broda na zasti But that still doesn't seem to warrant its equation to "ro da na'e broda", since we can refer to and talk about non-existing broda1 (e.g. a flying teapot, a pink unicorn, Donald Duck, etc.) which must be included in "ro da". >> My point, anyway, was that "nothing is/does ..." (saying of nothing) >> may not be more basic and universal a form than "everything/anything >> is/does ..." (saying of something). Every expression with "nothing" >> seems to be convertible into an expression with "everything"; and when >> "everything" is not entirely accurate as in "I do not see everything >> (while not completely blind)", the same inaccuracy can be found in "I >> see nothing (while not completely blind)". So I wonder if any >> statement with "nothing" has any truth independent of its "everything" >> counterpart. If it isn't so independent, we can't really say of >> nothing in its own right (although we can talk about the concept of >> the *set* which has nothing, i.e. the set which doesn't have >> everything). > > =A0 Please, please, please do not confuse natlangs with predicate logic. I don't. In fact, I meant to suggest we have to be careful when using such natlang expressions as "there is no ..." and "nothing is ..." in a discussion of quantification, because these idioms don't always reflect logical principles. It may be common for speakers of certain natlangs to use forms of expression that appear to say of nothing, and I suspect such forms may logically not be as fundamental as (and independent from) forms that say of something. > Nothing means nothing, everything/anything means everything/anything. To the extent at least that English "nothing" can mean a non-nothing, I don't see how your definition would be satisfactory for logical uses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nothing#Language_and_logic http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nothingness/ http://www.nothingnesstheory.com/ "Nothing" in logic seems to be best defined as a pseudo-term with no object to which it refers. And zero object is necessarily nomei. This just goes back to my initial point: "lo broda", which refers to broda1 (something), is not compatible with an inner "no", which refers to nomei1 (nothing). >> > =A0 The zasni gerna cenba vreji page is NOT xorlo.=A0 They are only xo= rxes' >> > additional proposed expansions to the grammar. >> >> I know. I meant the xorlo definition of "lo broda", to which I was >> comparing your "lo no broda". You implied that the basis for "nonai" >> is unsatisfactory because it's not canonical, so I wondered whether >> your own reasoning for "lo no broda" could be considered any more >> satisfactory by the same standard you implicitly invoked. > > =A0 Umm.. okay, let's try CLL Chapter 6.7: "This quantifier is called an > ``inner quantifier'', and its meaning is quite different: it tells the > listener how many objects the description selbri characterizes. "=A0 And = this > (although partially=A0 negated by xorlo): "Using exact numbers as inner > quantifiers in lo-series descriptions is dangerous, because you are stati= ng > that exactly that many things exist which really fit the description"=A0 = So if > nothing does, "no" is a perfectly valid inner qualifier. Except that the quote is about a description sumti formed with "le", not "l= o". > =A0 Yes, obviously what it means as an exact number=A0in a given context = would > be contextually dependent. I have no argument/problem with that.=A0 But u= sing > "nonai" where "za'uno" or "su'o" is more appropriate is like saying that = one > should use "ro" when "su'o" is called for if you only have one object in > that context.=A0 Can you not see how that would lead to confusion? I wouldn't want "nonai" where "za'uno" or "su'o" is clearly more appropriate. I'm talking about the implicit inner PA of "lo broda", if any, and xorlo has no provision for "su'o" or any other known PA as an appropriate default inner quantifier. You asked me to answer to "lo xo broda", so I invented a PA which isn't "su'o" etc. but would fit into "xo". >> We are talking about whether or not it's possible for "lo broda" to >> have "no" as its inner quantifier (to be nomei). That possibility >> isn't acknowledged by xorlo, according to which the referent of "lo >> broda" (the x1 of selbri in general) is to be considered more than >> nothing. This entails that any inner quantifier of "lo broda" be other >> than "no" by default. There is this certain default sense that the >> inner PA can't be "no", and that mathematically points to "za'uno" or >> "su'o". Should either of these be the default inner quantifier, then? >> I'm not sure, insofar as I respect the xorlo-proposer's opinion. > > =A0 But I don't see that indicated anywhere, implicitly or explicitly,=A0= in the > xorlo proposal.=A0 I guess that's my main problem.=A0 Saying that "lo" wi= th no > inner qualifier means that there is always at least one is exactly the sa= me > as saying that the default inner qualifier is "su'o", which xorlo explici= tly > says is not the case.=A0 Help me out, here. I don't think xorlo says the first. As far as I can tell, "lo broda" is as much "lo su'o broda" as "lo gerku" is "lo gerku noi danlu", and as much not "lo no broda" as "lo gerku" isn't "lo gerku noi nardanlu". We could have "noi danlu" as the default clause for "lo gerku", but we need not. We could have "su'o" as the default inner qualifier for "lo broda", but we need not. > Thanks for the pointer to the article, although I'm not sure that it > applies here. In fact, why can't I say, "ro lo ci vinji ka'e vofli" bu= t > "no lo pimu vinji ka'e vofli"? "lo pimu vinji" means "zo'e noi vinji gi'e pimu mei". It suffers the same problem as of "lo no vinji": there can be no airplane whose cardinality is less than one. If less-than-one 'airplane' could be an airplane, exactly-one airplane would have meant multiple airplanes, which would be nonsense. > Now, I grant you, if I wanted to talk about > more than one "half-airplane", I'd have to phrase it differently. Without > using xadba (simply because it's non-extensible to other-than-halves), my > first impulse would be "no lo ci lo pimu vinji ka'e vofli", but that woul= d > violate the principle of inner qualifiers needing to be greater than or > equal to outer ones, wouldn't it? So, I'm not sure. (Of course, that sam= e > issue obtains if you claim the answer is "no lo ci lo pimu lo vinji ka'e > vofli". Or doesn't it?) It would first violate the principles of reference that I explained above. We would want "pimu" as an outer rather than inner. However, any quantification over piPA which itself quantifies something of an unspecified quantity, is bound to be vague: ci lo pimu lo vinji 3 of 0.5 (50%, half) of airplane If "lo panono vinji", the above quantification would mean a quantity equivalent to 150 airplanes; if "lo pa vinji", a quantity equivalent to 3 blocks of 'half-airplane'. So we would need to specify the inner as "pa" in order for the outer "pimu" to unambiguously mean "a half of an airplane". I think "lo pimu lo pa vinji" can have a cardinality independent of "lo pa vinji". If I cut and get a half of airplane-A which is an instance of "lo pa vinji", that wouldn't mean I couldn't have another half from airplane-B which still is an instance of "lo pa vinji". "pa" in "lo pimu lo pa vinji" seems to say more of "an airplane which something is a half of, that I'm talking about", than "the one airplane that I'm talking about, which something is a half of": lo pimu lo pa vinji =3D zo'e noi me lo pimu lo pa vinji (rather than: lo pa vinji poi zo'e me lo pimu ke'a) So, outer-quantifying it with "ci" seems ok: ci lo pimu lo pa vinji =3D ci da poi me lo pimu lo pa vinji (rather than: lo pa vinji poi ci da me lo pimu ke'a) (By the way, I wonder if "ci da poi me ..." would mean the same as "ci zo'e noi me ...".) mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.