From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRD41_ztBBoE3AY38Q@googlegroups.com Mon May 02 15:11:20 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QH1Kk-0003k7-O5; Mon, 02 May 2011 15:11:20 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf1786647vws.16 for ; Mon, 02 May 2011 15:11:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=3Oe/2figKN08DX1+K4Ggw23+hXhK6i4qbGupO1ga6ug=; b=Hyt5LzTluw91qyOQJkeENaa4rN/wNhx08QpxWiGs3inQIJTGevJjwwZhGCxISH8L+u R7kNAmT0uDeDrDek22P1gshdNQGZBu9O77QcBOKZwLDw6iyNJ/ZH5R0ygO9rAIARnsgI oihAGHdlyizevNlzoE0qLY+QCGJv49HQsoCL4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=AyO3kkUle3HQYty/zDQe0CSChyTsNtlqN/z5icC9G0CCCq5aMV8qCd/R1oWtPyJOZD jFBzoPsBVALSai6DYZcg1tQX7MhjaqjCpmVr8HKtmiBKv4RWaCIMqU27m+h/qSCMwISQ aHLXrXX7EkSqtDpQFY8FAJwJmnI20qazqHnKI= Received: by 10.220.182.136 with SMTP id cc8mr711688vcb.17.1304374264953; Mon, 02 May 2011 15:11:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.177.98 with SMTP id cp2ls954385vdc.0.gmail; Mon, 02 May 2011 15:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.88.73 with SMTP id be9mr711872vdb.25.1304374264274; Mon, 02 May 2011 15:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.88.73 with SMTP id be9mr711871vdb.25.1304374264265; Mon, 02 May 2011 15:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f175.google.com ([209.85.220.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b16si1594805vby.2.2011.05.02.15.11.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 02 May 2011 15:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.175; Received: by mail-vx0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 7so5367824vxd.20 for ; Mon, 02 May 2011 15:11:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.72.103 with SMTP id c7mr3770864vdv.89.1304374264021; Mon, 02 May 2011 15:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.185.167 with HTTP; Mon, 2 May 2011 15:11:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 19:11:03 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and default quantifiers From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 1:04 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > mmm, good points. =A0I guess what I was getting at is, just because there= are > no default quantifiers doesn't mean that people are going to use context = to > assume them. =A0(for example, you assume that {ro lo nanmu cu bevri lo pi= pno}) No, I don't. If I assumed that each man carried the piano, then I would conclude that at least one of them carried it too. If I was forced to assume anything, it would be that none of them carried it by himself. (But please don't interpret that as saying that I read "lo ci nanmu cu bevri lo pipno" as "no lo ci nanmu cu bevri lo pipno"! Just because two things happen to be true does not mean that they are saying the same thing!) > And also that seems weird. =A0{no} is a number just like {pa}, {re}, {su'= o}, > or {so'i}. =A0It seems weird that using it as a quantifier of a sumti can > directly effect the selbri in ways that other numbers can't. Every quantifier affects the bridi in ways that other quantifiers don't, otherwise they would be the same quantifier. "no ..." is equivalent to "naku su'o ..." and also equivalent to "ro ... na= ku" "no" is not the only quantifier that contains a negation. "me'i", "su'e" and "da'a" also do. "me'i PA ..." is equivalent to "naku su'o PA ...", and "su'e PA ..." is equivalent to "naku za'u PA ..." "da'a PA ..." is equivalent to "PA ... naku" > I understand intuitively why that is the case. =A0But it still feels stra= nge. > =A0I kind of have to wonder if {mi na citka lo plise} and {mi citka no pl= ise} > really are identical (I know that the meanings of the statements are the > same, but are the statements themselves the same as each other) They are quite different, they have different meanings. I don't understand why you say that I said that they were identical. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.