From lojban+bncCK30vq5WEIr6lu8EGgSP2F9x@googlegroups.com Tue May 31 21:16:24 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QRcqz-0007ly-8C; Tue, 31 May 2011 21:16:24 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf2780630pvc.16 for ; Tue, 31 May 2011 21:16:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject :message-id:references:mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-disposition; bh=Fo/51978X2I9AxkOEHFXrvwM8CDWEyGIIoZVH0AZvAI=; b=BZ3T5W0cRL8SqpPEbRoaUpOKzcyOmXeWH9LrgeK+rNNsG4wifiUxSymwEC0om4HOUR 29jcKWyAt2KiLpriDMSBXdDXGUZIfsJN8uvHHNlOyekd5LmMlm+qkvdUQFToZ96BSOCX 85FHOSExIJ3Z7TOKGSd4TdXMfsymwm2/cHC0E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:date:from:to:subject:message-id:references :mime-version:in-reply-to:user-agent:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type:content-disposition; b=fzb95ViRSmt7STpTQ20boffTwXk91TH9SyysbV46caDQibiv4wsk2Ka/s2EN49ZsS9 PTj0BXrYSMOLfWGFHbbdWrwAP9lwHcN30YGL4oojC65dStFuxi7l6VKfQe7rc1OkfYp0 GvPxtYWOtylkYDCug1TWtyWVN4/ehKQrZNpWk= Received: by 10.68.25.69 with SMTP id a5mr533638pbg.10.1306901770266; Tue, 31 May 2011 21:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.15.3 with SMTP id t3ls41980pbc.1.gmail; Tue, 31 May 2011 21:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.36.194 with SMTP id s2mr1473031pbj.100.1306901769196; Tue, 31 May 2011 21:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.36.194 with SMTP id s2mr1473030pbj.100.1306901769182; Tue, 31 May 2011 21:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from chain.digitalkingdom.org (digitalkingdom.org [173.13.139.234]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c10si1298880pbi.2.2011.05.31.21.16.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 31 May 2011 21:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.234 as permitted sender) client-ip=173.13.139.234; Received: from rlpowell by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QRcqm-0007lq-Dp for lojban@googlegroups.com; Tue, 31 May 2011 21:16:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 21:16:08 -0700 From: Robin Lee Powell To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] [nomik] pa mo'o ci moi javni Message-ID: <20110601041608.GV11152@digitalkingdom.org> References: <20110601001607.GS11152@digitalkingdom.org> <20110601011832.GU11152@digitalkingdom.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) X-Original-Sender: rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org designates 173.13.139.234 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Jun 01, 2011 at 12:06:04AM -0400, .arpis. wrote: > On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 9:18 PM, Robin Lee Powell < > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > > > On Tue, May 31, 2011 at 09:02:44PM -0400, .arpis. wrote: > > > .i drani > > > .i li pi mu te sumji ki'u lo du'u filsmu seja'enai lo du'u barda > > > > That reminds me that we need to nail down that whole "despite" > > thing; .oi > > > > What you did is just fine; I also reccomend {ju} to your attention; > > one of the few places I like logical connections for causal-type > > thoughts. > > > > > .i li pi mu te sumji ki'u lo du'u mi selzdi > > > .i li pi mu te sumji ki'u lo du'u citri vajni > > > .i li pi mu te sumji ki'u lo du'u zdile palci pe'a zo'o co'e > > > .i li re sumji > > > > .io se'i .e'e .ui ro'a > > mi mutce nalmo'i .oi sai tu'a zo ju > > But {ju} is unfortunately logically incorrect for "despite" (as I > understand "despite"). It's "A regardless of B", which is pretty much the same thing IMO; "I like blue despite my red shit" =~ "I like blue regardless of my red shirt". > It's kinda like {seku'i} (if {ku'i} weren't a UI): "A [and] > however B" vs "A [and] despite B" In both cases, "A and B" is > entailed, however the first implicates that A usually entails not > B, and the second implicates that B usually entails not A. It's true, {ju} doesn't entail B, but it doesn't deny it either. What you're talking about ("A AND B, even though that's unusual") is ku'i, though. Like I said, the whole "ri'a nai == despite" thing needs some review, because it's not a terribly obvious result of the cmavo involved. I think {ki'u ku'i} would have encoded the same meaning with more clarity. > Also, am I using {du'u} correctly? I tend to think of it when I am > tempted in English to say "that" or "the fact that" (and {nu} when > I use the infinitive) That's also how I read it. -Robin -- http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/): The language in which "this parrot is dead" is "ti poi spitaki cu morsi", but "this sentence is false" is "na nei". My personal page: http://www.digitalkingdom.org/rlp/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.