From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDR7_ftBBoE12xGlg@googlegroups.com Sun May 01 17:16:35 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QGgoO-0008NN-6F; Sun, 01 May 2011 17:16:34 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf6260890fxm.16 for ; Sun, 01 May 2011 17:16:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=ddOrfGpAduc/yiq0ycbgOU+CtVpTj7UNGms2POg2/oo=; b=vNpSPnvymh7aBbqio1jmjN5oxFSxg4yfzF9pmCzDeufLsr1f1sbCfmG1qO37bEizHU XSOdsvo/HAGYWr0yNCyoe53ryRm4GebezJTALzJo/GM4M0JWwZpW7014hSz1c9z+T5Ms W+NiJIX0t13YMpXPgBoc/WW2dV1Uswyjmm3KM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=Uf/L1nraOFp4r+s/IeiAugrnNLMEdS4Ief0h1bg5Gu5/wzvjKnCxJLUdn4jpjaegFi kmSKKbD0TY6hfIdW8zRPkjCOVKGWFU8uCARK9ThmTV6oyYmTH5OVaGIh7ImQYCxLFNt7 eEXDVbgvGr9aCuD1WHBsPT7uW9f3FwYfsTk2M= Received: by 10.223.127.194 with SMTP id h2mr1643300fas.9.1304295377890; Sun, 01 May 2011 17:16:17 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.51.195 with SMTP id e3ls1081565fag.1.gmail; Sun, 01 May 2011 17:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.77.11 with SMTP id e11mr600040fak.17.1304295376609; Sun, 01 May 2011 17:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.77.11 with SMTP id e11mr600039fak.17.1304295376576; Sun, 01 May 2011 17:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f46.google.com (mail-bw0-f46.google.com [209.85.214.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r28si553000fam.4.2011.05.01.17.16.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 01 May 2011 17:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.46; Received: by bwz15 with SMTP id 15so6878881bwz.33 for ; Sun, 01 May 2011 17:16:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.14.195 with SMTP id h3mr1505623bka.46.1304295375906; Sun, 01 May 2011 17:16:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.6.196 with HTTP; Sun, 1 May 2011 17:16:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 18:16:15 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] [CLL Errata] zo ra'o From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0022158c19359029ad04a23feeb5 --0022158c19359029ad04a23feeb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I think the "correct" place is the BPFK list, but this is certainly and acceptable alternative. On Sat, Apr 30, 2011 at 5:25 PM, .asiz. wrote: > coi rodo > > In http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_grammar/chapter7.html#s6 > after the explanation about the cmavo {ra'o}, it is stated that > " > The ``ra'o'' forces the second ``mi'' from the original bridi to mean > the new > speaker rather than the former speaker. This means that ``go'e ra'o'' > would > be an acceptable alternative to ``do go'e'' in B's statement in > Example 6.10. > " > > If I understand correctly, the last sentence is wrong for two reasons. > > The CLL defines {ra'o} in this paragraph: > " > Finally, ``ra'o'' is a cmavo that can be appended to any go'i-series > cmavo, > or indeed any cmavo of selma'o GOhA, to signal that pro-sumti or pro- > bridi > cmavo in the antecedent are to be repeated literally and reinterpreted > in > their new context. Normally, any pro-sumti used within the antecedent > of > the pro-bridi keep their meanings intact. In the presence of ``ra'o'', > however, > their meanings must be reinterpreted with reference to the new > environment. > " > > Example 6.10 is > " > 6.10) > A: mi ba klama le zarci > B: mi nelci le si'o mi go'i > A: do go'e > " > > > Firstly, {do go'e} is not B's, but A's statement. > > Secondly, being A's statement, the referent of {mi} does not change. > In this example, {go'e ra'o} would mean the same as {go'e}. > > The current text might give the impression that {ra'o} simply swaps > {mi} by {do} in the referenced bridi, which is not the case, is it? > > Apparently, someone noted that and proposed a correction in > http://www.lojban.org/tiki/CLL%2C+aka+Reference+Grammar%2C+Errata > > However, I believe that the "correct correction" approved instead > is in contradiction with the definition of {ra'o} in the CLL, for the > reasons > stated above. > > I would then appreciate clarification on the issue. > Also, is this the right place to discuss this kind of issue? > > mu'o > mi'e .asiz. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0022158c19359029ad04a23feeb5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the "correct" place is the BPFK list, but this is certain= ly and acceptable alternative.

On Sat, Ap= r 30, 2011 at 5:25 PM, .asiz. <felipeg.assis@gmail.com> wrote:
coi rodo

In http://www.lojban.org/publications/reference_gr= ammar/chapter7.html#s6
after the explanation about the cmavo {ra'o}, it is stated that
"
The ``ra'o'' forces the second ``mi'' from the original= bridi to mean
the new
speaker rather than the former speaker. This means that ``go'e ra'o= ''
would
be an acceptable alternative to ``do go'e'' in B's statemen= t in
Example 6.10.
"

If I understand correctly, the last sentence is wrong for two reasons.

The CLL defines {ra'o} in this paragraph:
"
Finally, ``ra'o'' is a cmavo that can be appended to any go'= ;i-series
cmavo,
or indeed any cmavo of selma'o GOhA, to signal that pro-sumti or pro- bridi
cmavo in the antecedent are to be repeated literally and reinterpreted
in
their new context. Normally, any pro-sumti used within the antecedent
of
the pro-bridi keep their meanings intact. In the presence of ``ra'o'= ;',
however,
their meanings must be reinterpreted with reference to the new
environment.
"

Example 6.10 is
"
6.10)
=A0 =A0A: mi ba klama le zarci
=A0 =A0B: mi nelci le si'o mi go'i
=A0 =A0A: do go'e
"


Firstly, {do go'e} is not B's, but A's statement.

Secondly, being A's statement, the referent of {mi} does not change. In this example, {go'e ra'o} would mean the same as {go'e}.

The current text might give the impression that {ra'o} simply swaps
{mi} by {do} in the referenced bridi, which is not the case, is it?

Apparently, someone noted that and proposed a correction in
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/CLL%2C+aka+Reference+Gramma= r%2C+Errata

However, I believe that the "correct correction" approved instead=
is in contradiction with the definition of {ra'o} in the CLL, for the reasons
stated above.

I would then appreciate clarification on the issue.
Also, is this the right place to discuss this kind of issue?

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

--
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For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.




--
mu'o mi'= e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. m= i patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<= br>

--
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
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