From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDnkpDuBBoEM9NfwQ@googlegroups.com Fri May 06 07:45:16 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QIMHA-0003c1-UZ; Fri, 06 May 2011 07:45:16 -0700 Received: by vxk20 with SMTP id 20sf2777994vxk.16 for ; Fri, 06 May 2011 07:44:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=XjgopgFarfYQrGGTOEsqYqVkW61moiMRM8K+cK3acXE=; b=drwAJbroJCizTa4wOHghQWbrDPJMMf2eMPwNb8+2bPzpMBmQqObCTHkCSWTpJexXKW 4/CBr5cAh6E8EAToMYDnKrAeyidvNbO83gI+YQKBFKWZ5p4hKYlMQKF78JyN+MSerSCw Km/+7oNMqxXNV7rYy3ROkauwAhJcH5vJeudjA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=ZmSCQ0RfGEVAZKXfKpDUo8WQa3gGQ5m9ZwTjcPmI70LVx8xIkHkoYs6Ft9RJqdVz+p M0hrBEx9MI6TOoqvGupvM4bB6w5/SIdiXf+nFPGpWDcPKfOKnLhQNv//0YK4QZp/6to7 kT5zWMXsXMjwbPPH5SL+QFUpGNai4nwvv3Jvw= Received: by 10.220.80.204 with SMTP id u12mr442298vck.15.1304693095115; Fri, 06 May 2011 07:44:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.91.165 with SMTP id cf5ls1033454vdb.1.gmail; Fri, 06 May 2011 07:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.75.138 with SMTP id c10mr342794vdw.17.1304693094193; Fri, 06 May 2011 07:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.75.138 with SMTP id c10mr342793vdw.17.1304693094148; Fri, 06 May 2011 07:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f177.google.com (mail-qy0-f177.google.com [209.85.216.177]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o28si773731vbn.0.2011.05.06.07.44.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 06 May 2011 07:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.177 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.177; Received: by mail-qy0-f177.google.com with SMTP id 38so2934904qyl.15 for ; Fri, 06 May 2011 07:44:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.27.193 with SMTP id j1mr2550478qcc.82.1304693093717; Fri, 06 May 2011 07:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.188.133 with HTTP; Fri, 6 May 2011 07:44:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <720969.7604.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201105021943.53482.jezuch@interia.pl> <737349.12591.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <770130C4-1AF0-4060-AC2A-F209952E0AA9@yahoo.com> <20110504130615.GA21885@alice.local> <20110504133954.GB21885@alice.local> <720969.7604.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 10:44:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and default quantifiers From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.177 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636426bf56456a604a29c8833 --001636426bf56456a604a29c8833 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry. That wasn't my intent. I just get a large case of MEGOcity whenever the talk turns to obscure linguistic points. I have the same attitude towards lojban that Rabbi Hillel (ca 2000 years ago) had towards Jewish Law (halachah). To find out what the actual practice of the law is, turn to see what the Jewish people are doing (ex. Babylonion Talmu Pesachim 66a). To find out what the definition of lojbanic grammar/words are, see how it's actually being used. And one can't do that if it's not actually being used. I.e., less talk /about/ lojban , more talk /in/ lojban. (pe'i lo nu tavla fi la lojban kei lo nu tavla ba'e fo la lojban kei lo ka vajni cu na zbasu). I recognize that not everyone treats lojban as a living language, however. --gejyspa On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 10:13 AM, John E Clifford wrot= e: > May we infer from the fact that this thread has turned into a phallomach= y > about Lojban skills that everyone is clear that {lo} descriptions do not > have implicit external quantifiers and that {no} wouldn't be an appropria= te > one even it they did? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Luke Bergen > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Wed, May 4, 2011 8:43:56 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] xorlo and default quantifiers > > .u'i mi ba nelci lo nu kelci .i pe'u ko cfagau > > On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 9:39 AM, .alyn.post. < > alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: > >> dai zo'o ma'a kakne lo nu finti lo pluja lojbo bende .ijonai kelci >> lu ko jimpe ba'e ti li'u noi zvati la .xedbig. >> >> .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. >> >> On Wed, May 04, 2011 at 09:17:49AM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: >> > .u'i va'o lo nu lo sidbo cu vajni mi kei mi sampu cusku mu'i lo nu = mi >> na >> > djica lo nu toljimpe cu'u mi .ija'ebo mi so'aroi sampu cusku .ija'e= bo >> mi >> > la'a masno cirko lo ka kakne lo nu pluja cusku .u'i .uinai >> > >> > On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 9:06 AM, .alyn.post. >> > <[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> wrote: >> > >> > ni'o .ue.ui mi capu jimpe di'u pe la xorxes .e la cribe .i mi pu >> > pilno lo jbovlaste lo nu sisku lo se valsi po'o so'u valsi .i zo'= o >> > do simlu lo ka cusku lo sampu lojbo >> > >> > .i mu'o mi'e .alyn. >> > On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 08:06:50PM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote: >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD mi na djica lo nu cusku lo du'u srera lo nu= cilre ca lo nu >> tadni >> > .i mi >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD ji'a bangu pilno ca lo nu mi cilre .iji'abo= mi ba'e caca'a >> cilre >> > .u'i >> > > >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 2011/5/3 Jorge Llamb=EF=BF=BDas <[1][2]jjll= ambias@gmail.com> >> > > >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 2011/5/3 Luke Bergen <[2][3]lukea= bergen@gmail.com>: >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > .u'i do tcetce cizra lo jbopre = .i pe'i so'e lo nintadni >> cu >> > cusku lo >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD glibau >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > befi lu mi nintadni .iku'i mi j= invi lo du'u mi cilre tai >> traji >> > sutra >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD va'o lo >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > nu mi pilno lo jbobau ca lo nu = mi cilre li'u >> > > >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD pe'i lo nu pilno ca lo nu cilre c= u xagrai ja selte'i >> ji'asai lo >> > ka >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD cilre lo bangu kei lo tadji >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD mu'o mi'e xorxes >> > > >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD -- >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD You received this message because= you are subscribed to the >> > Google >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Groups "lojban" group. >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD To post to this group, send email= to >> > [3][4]lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD To unsubscribe from this group, s= end email to >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD [4][5]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD For more options, visit this grou= p at >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD [5][6]http://groups.google.com/gr= oup/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD -- >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD You received this message because you are s= ubscribed to the >> Google >> > Groups >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD "lojban" group. >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD To post to this group, send email to [7] >> lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD To unsubscribe from this group, send email = to >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD [8]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD For more options, visit this group at >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD [9]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl= =3Den. >> > > >> > > References >> > > >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Visible links >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 1. mailto:[10]jjllambias@gmail.com >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 2. mailto:[11]lukeabergen@gmail.com >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 3. mailto:[12]lojban@googlegroups.com >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 4. mailto:[13]lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com >> > > =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 5. [14]http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den >> > >> > -- >> > .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e >> > Groups "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to [15]lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > [16]lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > [17]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > For more options, visit this group at >> > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> > References >> > >> > Visible links >> > 1. mailto:alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org >> > 2. mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com >> > 3. mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com >> > 4. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 5. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 6. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den >> > 7. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 8. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 9. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den >> > 10. mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com >> > 11. mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com >> > 12. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 13. mailto:lojban%252Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 14. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den >> > 15. mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com >> > 16. mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com >> > 17. http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den >> >> -- >> .i ma'a lo bradi ku penmi gi'e du >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --001636426bf56456a604a29c8833 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=C2=A0 Sorry.=C2=A0 That wasn't my intent.=C2=A0 = I just get a large case of MEGOcity whenever the talk turns to obscure ling= uistic points.=C2=A0 I have the same attitude towards lojban that Rabbi Hil= lel (ca 2000 years ago) had towards Jewish Law (halachah).=C2=A0 To find ou= t what the actual practice of the law is, turn to see what the Jewish peopl= e are doing (ex. Babylonion Talmu Pesachim 66a).=C2=A0 To find out what the= definition of lojbanic grammar/words are, see how it's actually being = used.=C2=A0 And one can't do that if it's not actually being used.= =C2=A0 I.e., less talk=C2=A0/about/ lojban , more talk /in/ lojban. (pe'= ;i lo=C2=A0nu tavla fi=C2=A0la lojban kei lo nu tavla ba'e fo =C2=A0la = lojban kei lo ka vajni cu na zbasu). I recognize that not everyone treats l= ojban as a living language, however.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 --gejyspa
=C2=A0
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 10:13 AM, John E Clifford= <kali9putra@y= ahoo.com> wrote:
May we infer from the fact that this thread has turned into a phalloma= chy about Lojban skills that everyone is clear that {lo} descriptions do no= t have implicit external quantifiers and that {no} wouldn't be an appro= priate one even it they did?

From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com= >
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 4, 2011 8:43= :56 AM=20

Subject:<= /b> Re: [lojban] xorlo and default quantifiers

.u'i mi ba nelci lo nu kelci .i pe'u ko cfaga= u

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 9:39 AM, .alyn.post. <alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org> w= rote:
dai zo'o ma'a kakne lo n= u finti lo pluja lojbo bende .ijonai kelci
lu ko jimpe ba'e ti li= 9;u noi zvati la .xedbig.

.i mu'o mi'e .alyn.

On Wed, May 04, 2011 at 09:17:49AM -0400, Luke Bergen wrote:
> = =C2=A0 =C2=A0.u'i va'o lo nu lo sidbo cu vajni mi kei mi sampu cusk= u mu'i lo nu mi na
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0djica lo nu toljimpe cu'u m= i .ija'ebo mi so'aroi sampu cusku .ija'ebo mi
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0la'a masno cirko lo ka kakne lo nu pluja cusku .u'= ;i .uinai
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 9:06 AM, .aly= n.post.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0<[1]alyn.post@lodockikumazvati.org&= gt; wrote:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ni'o .ue.ui mi capu jimp= e di'u pe la xorxes .e la cribe .i mi pu
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0pilno lo jbovlaste lo nu sisku lo se valsi po'= o so'u valsi .i zo'o
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0do simlu lo ka cus= ku lo sampu lojbo
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.i mu'o mi'e = .alyn.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0On Tue, May 03, 2011 at 08:06:50PM -0400= , Luke Bergen wrote:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD mi na djica lo nu cusku l= o du'u srera lo nu cilre ca lo nu tadni
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.i = mi
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD ji'a bangu piln= o ca lo nu mi cilre .iji'abo mi ba'e caca'a cilre
> =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0.u'i
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF= =BD =EF=BF=BD 2011/5/3 Jorge Llamb=EF=BF=BDas <[1][2]jjllambias@gmail.co= m>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>= =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD 2011/5/3 Luke Bergen <[2][3]lukeabergen@= gmail.com>:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > .u= 9;i do tcetce cizra lo jbopre .i pe'i so'e lo nintadni cu
> = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0cusku lo
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD =EF= =BF=BD =EF=BF=BD glibau
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF= =BD =EF=BF=BD > befi lu mi nintadni .iku'i mi jinvi lo du'u mi c= ilre tai traji
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0sutra
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD = =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD va'o lo
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD = =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD > nu mi pilno lo jbobau ca lo nu mi cilre li'u> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD = =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD pe'i lo nu pilno ca lo nu cilre cu xagrai ja selte&= #39;i ji'asai lo
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0ka
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD =EF= =BF=BD =EF=BF=BD cilre lo bangu kei lo tadji
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0&g= t; =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD mu'o mi'e xorxes
> =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF= =BF=BD --
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Yo= u received this message because you are subscribed to the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Google
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD = =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD Groups "lojban" group.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD To post to this group, send email = to
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0[3][4]lojban@googlegroups.com.<= br>
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> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> = =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF=BD [5][6]http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?= hl=3Den.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF= =BD =EF=BF=BD --
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> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD =EF=BF= =BD "lojban" group.
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF= =BD =EF=BF=BD To post to this group, send email to [7]lojban@googlegroup= s.com.
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> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> References> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0> =EF=BF=BD = =EF=BF=BD Visible links
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> =C2=A0 10. mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com
> =C2=A0 11. mailto:lukeabergen@gmail.com
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