From lojban+bncCJzE7b_XFxCk7LLuBBoEcdBBeQ@googlegroups.com Thu May 12 21:40:18 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QKkAg-0004vd-HH; Thu, 12 May 2011 21:40:18 -0700 Received: by yie19 with SMTP id 19sf2633753yie.16 for ; Thu, 12 May 2011 21:40:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:date:from:reply-to:to:message-id :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=G+1d2tg9k2vALFXeIBJFgznoVfDuxZVHYXApcAkI2Cc=; b=kAP6+MsxNBqwC0exXzrdMibri9aKcT+e9Bu2DVHlGL2m5XlO3LnuzaddB7iMXZKsn/ o/X9opZGzSDRgrnsXDhNxzqviBppW/8vNkSnEiYwbiE98P4W6S41q6M+IsfDhuXX7vqx DnBdJCrtgOOepdePVi1D4MEt4H88HOT66qfE0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:date:from:reply-to:to:message-id:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=XHl68hEHFl3dsHPbJ6n1kc5+ogoRjPjYOs+/huuRYdGyIt2WOZ0fT10vKCySyZT4Az 2hRAbElrZ7lFnjY9FQHpoEVAVoewBuZ9SMlC9ealEXlQxDPmtLN2kUPJAu+HkhhqpHT+ WmCzfmGiNbSwjwRnTlvDvjoEW/paEMlIja4GA= Received: by 10.91.121.20 with SMTP id y20mr122660agm.57.1305261604742; Thu, 12 May 2011 21:40:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.142.17 with SMTP id u17ls425361agn.6.gmail; Thu, 12 May 2011 21:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.91.37.12 with SMTP id p12mr130246agj.22.1305261604081; Thu, 12 May 2011 21:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 21:39:57 -0700 (PDT) From: djandus Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com To: lojban@googlegroups.com Message-ID: <33005969.783.1305261597388.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqlq3> Subject: [lojban] Lojban Thinking MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: jandew@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_782_17369949.1305261597386" ------=_Part_782_17369949.1305261597386 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 (All right, transport yourself into full-blown Lojbanistan of the future for a moment, full of native Lojban speakers -- a lot of this is hypothetical. Also, ) I've been thinking about how people define words. When one person asks "What does beautiful mean?" the first thing the responder starting scrambling for is not the definition, but instead, synonyms. "Oh, you know, pretty... good-looking." Then he moves on to trying to put his finger on the real definition. "Pleasing to look at..." etc. But when one Lojbanist asks for a meaning of {melbi}, (the proper way to ask this is another question of mine entirely, discussed below) he knows there probably not any good immediate synonym to begin with, and will go directly to definitions like {pluka se catlu}, examples like {ko'a melbi mi}, or more complicated descriptions. Another example I thought of is "equal" vs. {du}. English speakers might start with "They're the same, equivalent... on the same level... " Lojban speakers would go straight to logical examples like {roda .i da du da} I feel like this is another example of how Lojban might let the human mind get used to cutting out the crappy relationships it's used to having to make with natlangs. For one, Lojban doesn't allow for us to rely on synonyms to define things. For another, culturally, Lojban doesn't require us to have synonyms on hand to interchange words and keep conversation "interesting"... one of the other things I've suddenly started questioning about natlangs. (Why is it wrong to "overuse" a word when that describes what is going on? Why is it that there are at least two other words that I can easily use instead for the same meaning?) (Total tangent: I've thus also been thinking about how very different it will be speaking/writing in Lojbanistan, where there is not cultural crime in using the same word often. For one thing, it must be easier to glance at a page and catch the main topics. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the entirety of what might be able to be in a Lojban "thesaurus" contained in the "cf." redirects in the gismu dictionary?) About the question-asking... Now that I think about it, the type of response given probably depends on the question. One way might be {ki'a broda}, with the issue of "Are you confused about the meaning or my use of broda?" Another might be {broda .ije'i mo}, for "Give me some examples and tell me their relation to broda." Or maybe something as simple as {broda je'i mo}, if I understand how je'i works well enough. Maybe a combination of these? .i cusku da'u ta'i ma mi'e djandus -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. ------=_Part_782_17369949.1305261597386 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (All right, transport yourself into full-blown Lojbanistan of the future fo= r a moment, full of native Lojban speakers -- a lot of this is hypothetical= . Also, <generic disclaimer on my inexperience or mistakes>)

=
I've been thinking about how people define words.

=
When one person asks "What does beautiful mean?" the first thing= the responder starting scrambling for is not the definition, but instead, = synonyms. "Oh, you know, pretty... good-looking." Then he moves on to tryin= g to put his finger on the real definition. "Pleasing to look at..." etc.

But when one Lojbanist asks for a meaning of {melbi= }, (the proper way to ask this is another question of mine entirely, discus= sed below) he knows there probably not any good immediate synonym to begin = with, and will go directly to definitions like {pluka se catlu}, examples l= ike {ko'a melbi mi}, or more complicated descriptions.

=
Another example I thought of is "equal" vs. {du}. 
Engl= ish speakers might start with "They're the same, equivalent... on the same = level... <grabs dictionary>"
Lojban speakers would go strai= ght to logical examples like {roda .i da du da}

I = feel like this is another example of how Lojban might let the human mind ge= t used to cutting out the crappy relationships it's used to having to make = with natlangs. For one, Lojban doesn't allow for us to rely on synonyms to = define things. For another, culturally, Lojban doesn't require us to have s= ynonyms on hand to interchange words and keep conversation "interesting"...= one of the other things I've suddenly started questioning about natlangs. = (Why is it wrong to "overuse" a word when that describes what is going on? = Why is it that there are at least two other words that I can easily use ins= tead for the same meaning?)
(Total tangent: I've thus also been t= hinking about how very different it will be speaking/writing in Lojbanistan= , where there is not cultural crime in using the same word often. For one t= hing, it must be easier to glance at a page and catch the main topics. Also= , correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the entirety of what might be able to = be in a Lojban "thesaurus" contained in the "cf." redirects in the gismu di= ctionary?)

About the question-asking...
= Now that I think about it, the type of response given probably depends on t= he question.
One way might be {ki'a broda}, with the issue of "Ar= e you confused about the meaning or my use of broda?"
Another mig= ht be {broda .ije'i mo}, for "Give me some examples and tell me their relat= ion to broda."
Or maybe something as simple as {broda je'i mo}, i= f I understand how je'i works well enough.
Maybe a combination of= these?
.i cusku da'u ta'i ma

mi'e djand= us
<jandew+lojban@gmail.com>

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