From lojban+bncCJbznvHdFRCuhbPuBBoE2kMhew@googlegroups.com Thu May 12 22:33:48 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QKl0S-000584-KQ; Thu, 12 May 2011 22:33:48 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf2350260fxm.16 for ; Thu, 12 May 2011 22:33:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=C/sCvZ07GW1eMybihNiNjt9DIqdppHLYtRtX/JiGuQs=; b=ciyPRvI+LC02Ob5DOBluLKrut/EPBVy0hrLdPGAlucfkpV32Cdn3D1SBpFJzpr6Pha jMsAkHFtCzIVD/g2MiiLLKuHO+q9xBZZGzMxAW1m4LIz4urN9MnOlRO7uHAUHsnAH19e zmozQTISvCPaxvMzlPNoUmdq0SGABPvvVhma8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=h+JoojsUTtBnTxhuM0bFaOB36z2odj/rjol33WdlgcV1PbWLp1WrnwcTzzAK/M04Oc gfSP96gpy/3J8OG8ZZmQKfFAvSdH9pApcZG1qLraCn3fdaPeEkg+3/lo7itoRw/vM6gB Kt13Ko2ZNFv/IRIB3ninzcg72Z7eEgHF5+zkU= Received: by 10.223.29.76 with SMTP id p12mr208776fac.38.1305264814347; Thu, 12 May 2011 22:33:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.223.51.195 with SMTP id e3ls434283fag.1.gmail; Thu, 12 May 2011 22:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.161.207 with SMTP id s15mr86864fax.6.1305264813356; Thu, 12 May 2011 22:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.161.207 with SMTP id s15mr86863fax.6.1305264813320; Thu, 12 May 2011 22:33:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f52.google.com (mail-fx0-f52.google.com [209.85.161.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j3si190638fax.9.2011.05.12.22.33.32 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 12 May 2011 22:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.52; Received: by mail-fx0-f52.google.com with SMTP id 6so2426816fxm.11 for ; Thu, 12 May 2011 22:33:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.2.205 with SMTP id 13mr1157217fak.138.1305264812151; Thu, 12 May 2011 22:33:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.81.76 with HTTP; Thu, 12 May 2011 22:33:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <33005969.783.1305261597388.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqlq3> References: <33005969.783.1305261597388.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqlq3> From: MorphemeAddict Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 01:33:12 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban Thinking To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3054a8ef77564404a321a5ec --20cf3054a8ef77564404a321a5ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Why do you think there won't be synonyms? There are synonyms in Lojban, and they could be used if necessary. Examples also abound, although {ko'a melbi mi} is a horribly bad one, because any brivla can replace "melbi", except maybe one of those with only one argument place. The idea of how best to define a word, even (or especially, in Lojban) is an interesting one. It might be better to use a different strategy than to 'define' a word, e.g., reductive paraphrase. stevo On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:39 AM, djandus wrote: > (All right, transport yourself into full-blown Lojbanistan of the future > for a moment, full of native Lojban speakers -- a lot of this is > hypothetical. Also, ) > > I've been thinking about how people define words. > > When one person asks "What does beautiful mean?" the first thing the > responder starting scrambling for is not the definition, but instead, > synonyms. "Oh, you know, pretty... good-looking." Then he moves on to trying > to put his finger on the real definition. "Pleasing to look at..." etc. > > But when one Lojbanist asks for a meaning of {melbi}, (the proper way to > ask this is another question of mine entirely, discussed below) he knows > there probably not any good immediate synonym to begin with, and will go > directly to definitions like {pluka se catlu}, examples like {ko'a melbi > mi}, or more complicated descriptions. > > Another example I thought of is "equal" vs. {du}. > English speakers might start with "They're the same, equivalent... on the > same level... " > Lojban speakers would go straight to logical examples like {roda .i da du > da} > > I feel like this is another example of how Lojban might let the human mind > get used to cutting out the crappy relationships it's used to having to make > with natlangs. For one, Lojban doesn't allow for us to rely on synonyms to > define things. For another, culturally, Lojban doesn't require us to have > synonyms on hand to interchange words and keep conversation "interesting"... > one of the other things I've suddenly started questioning about natlangs. > (Why is it wrong to "overuse" a word when that describes what is going on? > Why is it that there are at least two other words that I can easily use > instead for the same meaning?) > (Total tangent: I've thus also been thinking about how very different it > will be speaking/writing in Lojbanistan, where there is not cultural crime > in using the same word often. For one thing, it must be easier to glance at > a page and catch the main topics. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't > the entirety of what might be able to be in a Lojban "thesaurus" contained > in the "cf." redirects in the gismu dictionary?) > > About the question-asking... > Now that I think about it, the type of response given probably depends on > the question. > One way might be {ki'a broda}, with the issue of "Are you confused about > the meaning or my use of broda?" > Another might be {broda .ije'i mo}, for "Give me some examples and tell me > their relation to broda." > Or maybe something as simple as {broda je'i mo}, if I understand how je'i > works well enough. > Maybe a combination of these? > .i cusku da'u ta'i ma > > mi'e djandus > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --20cf3054a8ef77564404a321a5ec Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why do you think there won't be synonyms? There are synonyms in Lo= jban, and they could be used if necessary.
Examples also abound, although {ko'a melbi mi} is a horribly bad o= ne, because any brivla can replace "melbi", except maybe one of t= hose with only one argument place.
The idea of how best to define a word, even (or especially, in Lojban)= is an interesting one.
It might be better to use a different strategy than to 'define'= ; a word, e.g., reductive paraphrase.
=A0
stevo

=A0
On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 12:39 AM, djandus <jandew@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
(All right, transport yourself i= nto full-blown Lojbanistan of the future for a moment, full of native Lojba= n speakers -- a lot of this is hypothetical. Also, <generic disclaimer o= n my inexperience or mistakes>)=20

I've been thinking about how people define words.

When one person asks "What does beautiful mean?" the first t= hing the responder starting scrambling for is not the definition, but inste= ad, synonyms. "Oh, you know, pretty... good-looking." Then he mov= es on to trying to put his finger on the real definition. "Pleasing to= look at..." etc.

But when one Lojbanist asks for a meaning of {melbi}, (the proper way = to ask this is another question of mine entirely, discussed below) he knows= there probably not any good immediate synonym to begin with, and will go d= irectly to definitions like {pluka se catlu}, examples like {ko'a melbi= mi}, or more complicated descriptions.

Another example I thought of is "equal" vs. {du}.=A0
English speakers might start with "They're the same, equivale= nt... on the same level... <grabs dictionary>"
Lojban speakers would go straight to logical examples like {roda .i da= du da}

I feel like this is another example of how Lojban might let the human = mind get used to cutting out the crappy relationships it's used to havi= ng to make with natlangs. For one, Lojban doesn't allow for us to rely = on synonyms to define things. For another, culturally, Lojban doesn't r= equire us to have synonyms on hand to interchange words and keep conversati= on "interesting"... one of the other things I've suddenly sta= rted questioning about natlangs. (Why is it wrong to "overuse" a = word when that describes what is going on? Why is it that there are at leas= t two other words that I can easily use instead for the same meaning?)
(Total tangent: I've thus also been thinking about how very differ= ent it will be speaking/writing in Lojbanistan, where there is not cultural= crime in using the same word often. For one thing, it must be easier to gl= ance at a page and catch the main topics. Also, correct me if I'm wrong= , but isn't the entirety of what might be able to be in a Lojban "= thesaurus" contained in the "cf." redirects in the gismu dic= tionary?)

About the question-asking...
Now that I think about it, the type of response given probably depends= on the question.
One way might be {ki'a broda}, with the issue of "Are you con= fused about the meaning or my use of broda?"
Another might be {broda .ije'i mo}, for "Give me some example= s and tell me their relation to broda."
Or maybe something as simple as {broda je'i mo}, if I understand h= ow je'i works well enough.
Maybe a combination of these?
.i cusku da'u ta'i ma

mi'e djandus

--
You received this message because you= are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To post t= o this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--20cf3054a8ef77564404a321a5ec--