From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBD7hPrtBBoE0yvFUQ@googlegroups.com Mon May 02 03:08:11 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QGq2u-0004D2-GC; Mon, 02 May 2011 03:08:10 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf4123075pvc.16 for ; Mon, 02 May 2011 03:07:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=8B5j0XeFASSvyxGqFhYphqs2qR8juFyQ0dafRvXQfBw=; b=tlIpu9j1BBYsr3uewIOW3f2Xata3Rz9Jq7wHP98t41J6WcFHPQwN1h8wmY4zWe5+fU kxtmq2rgsoYVCan/1VLIX1WBtmXpBkM6d7v9ecfJ6wCBn7eQm9h2Q6zBt3b939E1duP6 bLWyS339AHvq41vzxPgutGFejXUtb8vp+IwHs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=wP/nv3Nm1l8cYg6/7NglHNKjsEEqz6CJ45FJCCNimYSMBUvczez5rLTc5kVgDGCIor P14OIiGkaBJrymZ0g2HrMwYz5EkL4xgS5bmQfi7cSY/902hdIDlVlwyZhiSy4P7AeY8U QJZ+Fi1QqyBWclAJ69RZHaMleCqHR3Vn2nslM= Received: by 10.68.25.69 with SMTP id a5mr439479pbg.10.1304330875178; Mon, 02 May 2011 03:07:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.1.5 with SMTP id 5ls6199692pbi.1.gmail; Mon, 02 May 2011 03:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.13.3 with SMTP id d3mr1092932pbc.22.1304330874433; Mon, 02 May 2011 03:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.13.3 with SMTP id d3mr1092931pbc.22.1304330874422; Mon, 02 May 2011 03:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f46.google.com (mail-qw0-f46.google.com [209.85.216.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id p19si2565082pbt.7.2011.05.02.03.07.54 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 02 May 2011 03:07:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.46; Received: by mail-qw0-f46.google.com with SMTP id 3so3385762qwk.5 for ; Mon, 02 May 2011 03:07:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.64.233 with SMTP id f41mr6038243qci.130.1304330873753; Mon, 02 May 2011 03:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.95.75 with HTTP; Mon, 2 May 2011 03:07:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 11:07:53 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] xorlo and default quantifiers From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/5/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Luke Bergen wrote= : >> So I was thinking about this earlier today and came to a realization. = =A0If >> xorlo says that there are no default quantifiers for {lo} then wouldn't = {no} >> be a reasonable possibility for the assumed quantifier? > > No, there isn't an assumed quantifier either. > >> e.g. {mi citka lo plise}. =A0{lo plise} has no outer quantifier (implici= t or >> explicit), but I suspect that most people will pick up from context that= I >> in fact {citka pa lo su'opa plise} or something like it. > > It will depend on the context, but as an isolated sentence I would > translate it as "I eat apples". That would be my English translation too. Unsatisfactorily so, due to the grammatical constraint in English where "I eat apple." would too often make little natural sense for the native speakers. Number-unmarked equivalents of "I eat apple." are however perfectly valid and common in some natlangs such as Japanese: "ringo" (jpn) by itself means "an apple" or "apples", which optional numerals can tell apart; and, just like what you pointed out below, "boku-wa ringo-o taberu" (mi lo plise cu citka), where the number of "ringo" is unmarked, never refers to zero apple. >> So if context can change the assumptions that the tecusku makes about th= e >> secusku, then couldn't one of those assumptions be {no lo cukta} since t= here >> is no proscribed default? > > No, because "no" contains a negation. If you say "mi citka" you can't > expect people to understand that you mean "mi na citka". Similarly, if > you say "mi citka lo plise" you can't expect anyone to understand that > you mean "mi citka no lo plise". .ie > Here is an example where "su'o" fails: > > lo ci nanmu ca'o bevri lo pipno. > "Three men are carrying a piano." > > It would not occur to me to conclude that at least one of the three > men is carrying a piano, my assumption would be that they are all > three doing it together. You don't mean "mass" by "doing it together", do you? There still seems to be some sense that the default PA for any "no"-less sumti is "su'o" (since "no nai" =3D "su'o") as well as that the default NA for any "na"-less bridi is "ja'a" (since "na nai" =3D "ja'a"). mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.