From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDzo7XuBBoEaa9x6w@googlegroups.com Fri May 13 08:45:05 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QKuY1-0006vM-43; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:45:04 -0700 Received: by vxk20 with SMTP id 20sf1204157vxk.16 for ; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:44:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=CYCMgHGqyUBF9K+dDWd7uTh+rYCrIRg8Z1uO2Te9bUc=; b=bdvazyNzSmLXbK9B75Pqn239eyjItJdbZ0YXeH3YEzXLs6/NfsIMcM7jb+ZrRt8mry dCAOX8fWpq5L4/21xMfBsIIuwZ1njsnOOXPYvEMziX6a9go9NLn+k1uJ7YC6yzUD683T jcEZhfz5ayjpSW9IVQZ9o0Gmi/B9Ivwj8JbVY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=DXkDr9nSunSn/f020V82knaDozH0B4hg3tBwIpSxDSHGzNLMALNs2Qq/9FSozzLCbs MEPtcJzh1SxXs12W4piYJPae8wX7ZxP9b77CxjWW1/LNVJfb+0CUaMHBMVYZLGSNt25r MQ7uvUqHQhQQzqa/IlwGMHCo8nlvK8mQy/lzg= Received: by 10.220.130.15 with SMTP id q15mr153030vcs.0.1305301491413; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:44:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.221.1.19 with SMTP id no19ls322688vcb.3.gmail; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.178.13 with SMTP id bk13mr272016vcb.8.1305301490265; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.220.178.13 with SMTP id bk13mr272015vcb.8.1305301490233; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f175.google.com (mail-qy0-f175.google.com [209.85.216.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o23si233522vcf.15.2011.05.13.08.44.50 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 13 May 2011 08:44:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.175; Received: by qyk35 with SMTP id 35so504472qyk.6 for ; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:44:49 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.67.218 with SMTP id s26mr1316875qci.40.1305301489556; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.62.78 with HTTP; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:44:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 11:44:49 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64de5049c1dd004a32a2fe0 --0016e64de5049c1dd004a32a2fe0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Look, I have to agree with Jonathan. This discussion has gone on quite too long. We disagree. That's it. You believe that lo implies there have to be za'uno elements, I don't. Of course, since you do believe that, I hope you are prepared, because all of the trained assassins I am sending your way are deadly. You better start worrying about their cardinality. You've stated your case. I've stated mine. As far as I can tell, we both understand each other's POV. My problem with your arguing up to this point has simply been you've been trying to tell me what what *I've* "intended" to say, and that's what I object to. On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:52 AM, tijlan wrote: > On 12 May 2011 13:56, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > > Why should that be any less sensical if the amount of dogs in the room is > zero? > > (Just like I can say to my kids "I'll give you all the dollars in my > pocket" even if that number is zero?) > > "ro" is an inexact number. I do not think it can't at all represent zero. > > I'm sorry, too many negatives in that sentence. Can you restate that in comprehensible English? I don't want to misinterpret you. > That's irrelevant to my point, because the outer PA and the inner PA > represent different sorts of quantity in different ways. That "ro" can > represent zero as an outer PA doesn't mean it can as an inner PA too. > Consider: Does this PA have the same utility in "lo ro gerku" as in > "ro lo gerku"? The inner works differently from the outer. I already > made this distinction when I deconstructed the example sumti: > > Of course the outer PA and inner PA are different and behave in different ways. My point is that I claim I can esily talk about "ro lo gerku" even if there are in fact none, in which case I am talking about "ro lo no gerku". You disagree --gejyspa -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e64de5049c1dd004a32a2fe0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 Look, I have to agree with Jonathan.=A0 This discussio= n has gone on quite too long.=A0 We disagree. That's it.=A0 You believe= that lo implies there have to be za'uno elements, I don't.=A0 Of c= ourse, since you do believe that, I hope you are prepared, because all of t= he trained assassins I am sending your way are deadly.=A0 You better start = worrying about their cardinality.=A0 You've stated your case.=A0 I'= ve stated mine. As far as I can tell, we both understand each other's P= OV.=A0 My problem with your arguing up to this point has simply been you= 9;ve been trying to tell me=A0what what *I've* "intended" to = say, and that's what I object to.

On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:52 AM, tijlan <jbo= tijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
On 12 May 2011 13:56, Michael Tu= rniansky <mtu= rniansky@gmail.com> wrote:

> Why should that be any less sensical if the amount of dogs in the = room is zero?
> (Just like I can say to my kids "I'll give y= ou all the dollars in my pocket" even if that number is zero?)

"ro" is an inexact number. I do not think it can't at all= represent zero.

=A0 I'm sorry, too many negatives in that sentence. Can you restat= e that in comprehensible English?=A0 I don't want to misinterpret you.<= /div>
=A0
That's irrelevant to my poin= t, because the outer PA and the inner PA
represent different sorts of qu= antity in different ways. That "ro" can
represent zero as an outer PA doesn't mean it can as an inner PA too.Consider: Does this PA have the same utility in "lo ro gerku" a= s in
"ro lo gerku"? The inner works differently from the outer= . I already
made this distinction when I deconstructed the example sumti:

=A0 Of course the outer PA and inner PA are different and behave in di= fferent ways.=A0 My point is that I claim I can esily talk about "ro l= o gerku" even if there are in fact none, in which case I am talking ab= out "ro lo no gerku".=A0=A0You disagree
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa
=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0016e64de5049c1dd004a32a2fe0--