From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCOp7XuBBoEeyuVfw@googlegroups.com Fri May 13 08:51:57 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QKued-00075B-R0; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:51:57 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf2396683pvc.16 for ; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:51:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=5XWRLKzNhXM+pA7si5EZ82lhCv0ZQF2eBjz/7mKr44c=; b=l686JlpErvnYV4qnaB1Ix1WIvnLz5rRSavhFRqEwtModIFGmDxCME8Vq96I3UpRfue cCx7LrOuwKJno0tt/RDB5oKdIRl6HaTVDEc8L2a8a5GL4jLhTLgYA+bd4BKOBHJQeFEJ erjG0RE2meFN3uf0TgBoMPB4DriqHNPh/nofQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=gr7/Z9vTmVMgal36rr04adOxOzh3s5CvumniLlahrtaEdIq+Lt1wCLVclSumpjOKwW 5/OmZOTNAZuawHS0RZiuo8vO6Uwmab9Zn8WP49L+cRFi8wTGDnbu2Dr2PWug7LWFLorK EhfKny7aWn1D6dNvU9Y8IYWWMX8ytUU4G7G1w= Received: by 10.142.62.31 with SMTP id k31mr195635wfa.50.1305301902321; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:51:42 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.143.58.18 with SMTP id l18ls1521320wfk.3.gmail; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.13.16 with SMTP id 16mr647845wfm.25.1305301901121; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.13.16 with SMTP id 16mr647844wfm.25.1305301901073; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm8-vm1.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm8-vm1.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.44.119]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id x35si1032176wfd.4.2011.05.13.08.51.40; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:51:41 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.44.119 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.44.119; Received: from [98.139.44.104] by nm8.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 May 2011 15:51:40 -0000 Received: from [98.139.44.80] by tm9.access.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 May 2011 15:51:40 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1017.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 May 2011 15:51:40 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-5 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 827720.70505.bm@omp1017.access.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 70447 invoked by uid 60001); 13 May 2011 15:51:38 -0000 Message-ID: <95672.68816.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: N8h_2jcVM1mgzogUx94j.peMn9h93af6dmFYcJv7efA_E4J vADWcB1MaHta8Q2R7l5k.kA.RmUnprddp11v.rzcBToBKwYMnGSlPZW86TZ. GfSeZ8_UJf12qksfuO1dBjXSMMvQY.V4mmDZOWTRFiA5UBeg7yTj5tu6LoV4 Hg7Yzs1wQRllZvr1Kx6e2lIbyGnIw_NhTyRzS1vgnMACuQVh8F4lFolciY_g trvq7Kl.Cl6w1lF7AbPVHSMTe.6HBkKXBuhazSvdaWwI4p92IoYOK5PGY1yv mWJPgPw.eciCa6Og3GauLySwvPYGuo1wrlru4cjtJxaI8V68AT5oZjBTjWJu hLdlALQvx3Pw2bIfGQvkck.BWKQfUuVCOT8pBbbKEm22vWPxfPn0THDEPdwl .l8xDgOfsIGXjAqHXGltYehlv0hSXcvHwBalDvoPAhwt4RK1pdc42omQhQV. lsP3tkG2KLJrV.DU7WOgWKfhUPdcXe8VtfOSPtut9RA-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 13 May 2011 08:51:37 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/567 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.303096 References: Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 08:51:37 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.44.119 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-480398428-1305301897=:68816" --0-480398428-1305301897=:68816 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The rules are the rules, pretty much regardless of what you (or I) think. alas. I don't even think the rules are stupid anymore, since they now have a firm logical base -- long missing. ________________________________ From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:44:49 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" Look, I have to agree with Jonathan. This discussion has gone on quite too long. We disagree. That's it. You believe that lo implies there have to be za'uno elements, I don't. Of course, since you do believe that, I hope you are prepared, because all of the trained assassins I am sending your way are deadly. You better start worrying about their cardinality. You've stated your case. I've stated mine. As far as I can tell, we both understand each other's POV. My problem with your arguing up to this point has simply been you've been trying to tell me what what *I've* "intended" to say, and that's what I object to. On Fri, May 13, 2011 at 10:52 AM, tijlan wrote: On 12 May 2011 13:56, Michael Turniansky wrote: > >> Why should that be any less sensical if the amount of dogs in the room is >zero? >> (Just like I can say to my kids "I'll give you all the dollars in my pocket" >>even if that number is zero?) > >"ro" is an inexact number. I do not think it can't at all represent zero. > > I'm sorry, too many negatives in that sentence. Can you restate that in comprehensible English? I don't want to misinterpret you. That's irrelevant to my point, because the outer PA and the inner PA >represent different sorts of quantity in different ways. That "ro" can >represent zero as an outer PA doesn't mean it can as an inner PA too. >Consider: Does this PA have the same utility in "lo ro gerku" as in >"ro lo gerku"? The inner works differently from the outer. I already >made this distinction when I deconstructed the example sumti: > > Of course the outer PA and inner PA are different and behave in different ways. My point is that I claim I can esily talk about "ro lo gerku" even if there are in fact none, in which case I am talking about "ro lo no gerku". You disagree --gejyspa -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0-480398428-1305301897=:68816 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The rules are the rules, pretty much regardless of what y= ou (or I) think. alas.  I don't even think the rules are stupid anymor= e, since they now have a firm logical base -- long missing.


From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky= @gmail.com>
To: lojb= an@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, May 13, 2011 10:44:49 AM
S= ubject: Re: [lojban] "lo no"

  Look, I have to agree with Jonathan.  This dis= cussion has gone on quite too long.  We disagree. That's it.  You= believe that lo implies there have to be za'uno elements, I don't.  O= f course, since you do believe that, I hope you are prepared, because all o= f the trained assassins I am sending your way are deadly.  You better = start worrying about their cardinality.  You've stated your case. = ; I've stated mine. As far as I can tell, we both understand each other's P= OV.  My problem with your arguing up to this point has simply been you= 've been trying to tell me what what *I've* "intended" to say, and tha= t's what I object to.

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