From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBD6v7nuBBoEQzYRFA@googlegroups.com Sat May 14 03:57:13 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QLCWz-0008M9-9C; Sat, 14 May 2011 03:57:13 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf13729214qwh.16 for ; Sat, 14 May 2011 03:57:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6B0qyh0tjb6tXnDJOK+txWdI9NR+NB805Q5y50WPQVM=; b=HrqDzFiWBnMNUI4CTHItlf0c4x07WZE59lraKB/BodJluNNawRs+NAPfz0BJdfvWkk zD3hxIV4PtY3x4iC6p0/OwQkfo/Bf8CJa8zjByoVqltQu54/R5RqzCAaIkevn27uUHe3 ehCRdGa9+opFbApOIdGujFoGR+a0FTUNIt0d4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=n7iBnViJEmodkYV/ftwLpdfGAs1qzmZvsmDImZHsOOYwWMWbKjUDiDdcz56CMEjUg+ ew3yNPhBhReBYWWnWAaHT4l6zLrgYEOcafdwlRpwZQUrB4OBrj6Lrx0tymrzuj8kUExK v/RDLGuPNBsF16SdnoUEhncSUsKxf7kD61pbc= Received: by 10.229.2.147 with SMTP id 19mr193705qcj.33.1305370618842; Sat, 14 May 2011 03:56:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.173.157 with SMTP id p29ls912284qcz.1.gmail; Sat, 14 May 2011 03:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.130.160 with SMTP id t32mr248104qcs.4.1305370618090; Sat, 14 May 2011 03:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.229.130.160 with SMTP id t32mr248103qcs.4.1305370618074; Sat, 14 May 2011 03:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qw0-f45.google.com (mail-qw0-f45.google.com [209.85.216.45]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fz1si550844qcb.10.2011.05.14.03.56.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 14 May 2011 03:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.45; Received: by qwj8 with SMTP id 8so2152765qwj.32 for ; Sat, 14 May 2011 03:56:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.64.233 with SMTP id f41mr1934607qci.130.1305370617858; Sat, 14 May 2011 03:56:57 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.95.75 with HTTP; Sat, 14 May 2011 03:56:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 11:56:57 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 13 May 2011 16:44, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Look, I have to agree with Jonathan.=A0 This discussion has gone on quite > too long.=A0 We disagree. That's it.=A0 You believe that lo implies there= have > to be za'uno elements, I don't. You disagree with me without addressing the logical problem on your part that I intended to point out. lo gerku =3D da poi gerku ci lo gerku =3D ci da poi gerku no lo gerku =3D no da poi gerku lo ci gerku =3D da poi gerku je cimei lo no gerku =3D da poi gerku je nomei Every sentence is syntactically valid, but the last one is logically questionable. You are yet to explain how exactly one could sensibly mean to refer to something which are both dogs and no dogs without a contradiction. Or: If you don't think that "lo no gerku" means "da poi gerku je nomei", please explain why. I doubt it's just a matter of subjective opinions; there should be some logical basis upon which our current disagreement can be resolved. I moved this discussion on to lojban@ for a reason. We should be clear about this now, so as to not repeat the same confusing argumentation in the eyes of newbies. > Of course, since you do believe that, I hope you are prepared, > because all of the trained assassins I am sending your way are deadly. > You better start worrying about their cardinality. "all of the trained assassins" (ro lo broda), given no context, can mean one thousand (ki'o lo broda) or none (no lo broda) or else. In any case, it refers to "the trained assassins" (lo broda), something -- not nothing, not nomei. And the universe of discourse isn't constrained by the physical reality; it's entirely possible for you to refer to objects or events which don't manifest in the physical world. That's how "I'll give you all the dollars in my pocket if you clean your room" too works; that you won't actually give the dollars in your pocket doesn't destroy the linguistic reference you make to "the dollars" in your utterance. > You've stated your case.=A0 I've stated mine. As far as I can tell, we bo= th > understand each other's POV.=A0 My problem with your arguing up to this p= oint > has simply been you've been trying to tell me=A0what what *I've* "intende= d" to > say, and that's what I object to. Is quantification in Lojban not meant to be unambiguous when made explicit? I've been trying to tell you what your zero-quantification may represent in accordance with the jbocre considerations given to the gadri, namely BPFK's xorlo. mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.