From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCr_7vuBBoE1t5tpA@googlegroups.com Sat May 14 15:18:32 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QLNAK-0008UZ-SJ; Sat, 14 May 2011 15:18:31 -0700 Received: by yie19 with SMTP id 19sf4190829yie.16 for ; Sat, 14 May 2011 15:18:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=HXcXqfG5f1q2tcXDTq6adtTizzN6+GBQmEyiH3I+ED8=; b=X7mNHFE4gVSR40DoYbsv06jhIfM/mF74FjGDzroj37UN4ZKmWEaqhCoiokK1EAN91D GvjBazbIsYoav0MlZL78zXomyqwKQSdan9GV0Bnpz7BlFABIA21+ZpBQ/sA0ru9utOfm BT+oVCVAjMrJCRtExHd/GNBXRKeTU7BQEfrJk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=qXqaiDOmJXjPj7vybP0lXG7kr7X0pQXGTQ7us6OeVfYtVNoABXFzq+kS2KyVt2zT2D h3sfbBVJgyM1aH/yNZdojYNWKlW2e/91o1np23cXOfwCxT0+xH1LkYwGTygrErz9NWzY c7bU9A+Fz/YNkG0kZqoCfTotcS3LGoWNnNUwc= Received: by 10.101.198.24 with SMTP id a24mr278388anq.23.1305411499010; Sat, 14 May 2011 15:18:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.197.18 with SMTP id z18ls387671anp.1.gmail; Sat, 14 May 2011 15:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.86.12 with SMTP id o12mr1119561anl.1.1305411498406; Sat, 14 May 2011 15:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.86.12 with SMTP id o12mr1119559anl.1.1305411498363; Sat, 14 May 2011 15:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.220]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id x34si439861ann.11.2011.05.14.15.18.17; Sat, 14 May 2011 15:18:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.220 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.220; Received: from [66.94.237.195] by nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2011 22:18:17 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.123] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2011 22:18:16 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1028.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 May 2011 22:18:16 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 970724.72162.bm@omp1028.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 82459 invoked by uid 60001); 14 May 2011 22:18:16 -0000 Message-ID: <693898.60118.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Bu_PFSIVM1kCn2WJvIrHw2180ejTMq8RzTJ7PZSr3ataSj3 lrEbCyoWTVP2oDV4fCJ9c9zWsgn6vBh1PfUiidArvJt.iQ.hZIQJ6qrgTkjM AjDpY3V1jwfLt7Y2gSpQnquc_74lt7ry512pUaWIINHJTU5pdjD_ddKkvj.k OGnUCjEtRF7A1hQR7LgyYwreUuHMy4JGspvZ287veD8ZWqtlihtsRY_pJnn9 Dlio_iIkflTkMtm4M6puSVVeyVWQLhFIKG3iZl.J73_oyUd.pmWIA8XG7uEq ocznUiqvpA1DBDuhZf3uLSPLM_jXbTmR2wT6YhF7FVThlzI4XB7DmgN5yNUQ h3eHMNMxMbl_LSu_pB9P0Jjz0KSjEdzYAVQlvcEych53vvF4_o5QX91NGdLN k50gv2DFQzNsO2LvpDCq.98fvvpA8c2olm2psX6PWJ_oO5eete5fAG21Aw_H xIzn_3FfNtXehNSc0.KuBKtmg7ryp5QPS5WawAOzjUoiXi2ja6.HR_RBPuQ- - Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 14 May 2011 15:18:16 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/567 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.303096 References: Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 15:18:16 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.220 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Logic has a problem with referenceless nameoids. If every (or, indeed, any= )=20 sentence containing one is true, then Particular Generalization is invalid;= if=20 all (any) are false, then Universal Instantiation fails. So, either they ha= ve no=20 truth values (with all the problems that entails) or they have stange truth= =20 values (and that has problems, too). Of, finally, we can deny that there a= re=20 any referenceless nameoids. usually by forcing some randomly selected membe= r of=20 the universe to be the default referent of such critters. This last move i= s=20 nice in formal semantics, but isn't much help languages, since the status o= f=20 such sentences here-and-now, is undetermined (back to those problems again)= . So=20 the best solution is just not to use such terms. The rule that use of a te= rm=20 guarantees its referent is in the domain does that pretty much. But the ex= treme=20 sort of contradictory terms, obvious ones as well as subtle, seem to foil e= ven=20 this attempt, and {lo no broda} is one of these. But Lojban ontology is sai= d to=20 embrace the impossible as well as the possible, So, there is a referent for= {lo=20 no broda} and, by other reasons, it is a broda, a medad and impossible. No= t a=20 happy result, perhaps, but one of the joys of logical languages is that it = keeps=20 coming up with surprises. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, May 14, 2011 10:22:26 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] "lo no" I agree with the gist of tijlan's post, but I'd like to add some observatio= ns. On Sat, May 14, 2011 at 7:56 AM, tijlan wrote: > > lo gerku =3D da poi gerku I prefer: lo gerku =3D zo'e noi gerku The reason is that "da" is meaningless until it is bound by a quantifier, and assuming a default "su'o" has the problem that quantifiers in Lojban are usually taken to bind singular variables (i.e. they are distributive). > ci lo gerku =3D ci da poi gerku > no lo gerku =3D no da poi gerku Here I prefer: ci lo gerku =3D ci da poi me lo gerku no lo gerku =3D no da poi me lo gerku This is just an application of a more general rule: PA (sumti) =3D PA da poi me (sumti) Now, it is generally true that the selbri "me lo broda" can be reduced to plain "broda" (as far as the x1 is concerned). But the exception is precisely in the cases when there are no broda in the universe of discourse. Since there are no broda in those cases, the sumti "lo broda" can't refer to anything, but the selbri "broda" could perhaps still have meaning. This won't affect tijlan's point though. I would accept that: ci gerku =3D ci da poi gerku no gerku =3D no da poi gerku since these follow a different paradigm, with no referring term being invol= ved. > lo ci gerku =3D da poi gerku je cimei > lo no gerku =3D da poi gerku je nomei lo ci gerku =3D zo'e noi gerku gi'e cimei lo no gerku =3D zo'e noi gerku gi'e nomei > Every sentence is syntactically valid, but the last one is logically > questionable. You are yet to explain how exactly one could sensibly > mean to refer to something which are both dogs and no dogs without a > contradiction. He is not referring to anything with "lo no gerku". "nomei" is not true of anything, just as "su'omei" is true of anything at all. He accepts terms that don't refer to anything, and arbitrarily assigns a truth value of "True" to any predication involving those terms. But those sentences don't really mean anything. He is extracting meaning not from what the sentence states but from the fact that he is using a non-referring term. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.