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Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:47:40 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/570 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.304355 Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:47:40 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties To: lojban@googlegroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.223 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I refuse to go with the oddities of English on this -- and I am not sure th= at=20 English would alwys call these thing properties. ----- Original Message ---- From: Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, June 18, 2011 1:05:34 AM Subject: [lojban] non-ka properties coi The following might be described in English as properties: These are especially suspect, since they all seem to refer to physical obje= ct=20 (which I think properties are not. * one's name having such and such a name * one's position being in such and such position * one's colour being of such and such a color -- this one is most likely of these to be ca= lled=20 a property=20 * one's temperature having such and such a temperature * one's mother having so and so as ones mother. All these are properties of things, not of properties --which are what=20 ka predicates refer to. They are, of course, of a rather different kind than what is referred to by ka-abstractions, which would be, for example, "the property of having a name" or "the property of being named Capulet". These non-ka properties might not be, e.g., neither of * se ckaji * se simlu * se sisku which are ka-specific. However, I believe that, depending on their specific nature, they might be either of By ""ka specific", I take it you mean "have ka mentioned in the definition"= . =20 This is not a terribly reliable guide, in either direction. * te zmadu * te jibni * te simsa * se mutce * se traji I then ask how these could be expressed in lojban, particularly as arguments of the aforementioned se sumti. Most of these seem to at least allow ka while admitting also quantities or= =20 events. This seems an accidental feature here. ka-properties have been described as lambda expressions. Well, no, though lambda expressions can built out of them (as also out of= =20 ordinary predicates) The return values of these expressions are truth values. They might be in a multivalued scale when used in zmadu, jibni, etc, but they are still basically truth values. Yes, in this sense, lambda expression are characteristic functions of prper= ties=20 -- but not the properties themselves. These non-ka properties are then just lambda expressions which return different kinds of values. It appears only logical that {ce'u} should be used. The best I have come up with are constructions such as {ko'a jibni ko'e lo se stuzi be ce'u}. Assuming that ko'a and ko'e are sentences/propositions this makes a sort of= =20 sense, their positions on a truth value scale, say. But it is not very nat= ural=20 a reading, even if we are talking about fuzzy values. Nevertheless, this directly contradicts the gimste, which specifically asks for a {ka} or {ni}. The CLL does not mention any possible use of {ce'u} outside an abstraction either. What am I missing? How are these ideas expressed in the current corpus? mu'o mi'e .asiz. I suspect a use-mention confusion between properties and predicates, but ca= n't=20 quite pin it down (and it may as well be mine as asiz') --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.