From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRD56fPvBBoE0lsVpw@googlegroups.com Sat Jun 18 11:57:14 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QY0hf-00079d-Ox; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:57:13 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf493632gxk.16 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:57:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=LBBdwTArQgOtSPb0jC5doj7HwyhIDKjmY8B7UC7PAyk=; b=vKoQJ6SjfedKX0oZLg+k2KYt+8rD0z/Ze0Qz9bxKYOsDyJ8wIXO1/UWzjqXGsTfN37 gYHUK1KDjcdQXFOeiie0gQFOGC3z+kZ6E4qA8RyO2Ov3wCCIBav5QTr5NRd8aluNMfZA JXcjqKY+BGrFRAvh4StRQX0rs+xDFJ2Y2/HFI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=HstO7Vc9QtpnqO8Ei4bTtin4JEQIoqyzGmx5qpVXCXM4TdVJcbTIdJZqDMg/6/gN8z UiM8iPhIMzrmf1s8G7m1F0EH+/xWOIl9QqZBOzMgztPbkHospGIaD77GJuSb79eqxSfj IdnOHNI7AdNPe8Q9vtFvjFdeaJzQ+F1lUXHfM= Received: by 10.101.165.20 with SMTP id s20mr322309ano.0.1308423417335; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:56:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.212.20 with SMTP id o20ls878134anq.3.gmail; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.163.20 with SMTP id q20mr1864278ano.6.1308423416498; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.163.20 with SMTP id q20mr1864277ano.6.1308423416477; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm27-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm27-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.227]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id s16si3442514anj.1.2011.06.18.11.56.56; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:56:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.227 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.227; Received: from [66.94.237.197] by nm27.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jun 2011 18:56:56 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.125] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jun 2011 18:56:56 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1030.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jun 2011 18:56:56 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 192535.26019.bm@omp1030.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 20818 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Jun 2011 18:56:56 -0000 Message-ID: <860642.20311.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: N83X98YVM1kOfM8D4t2HI_YSwLWm3mKoh9uF8TJTftX5wXc c.vfln0sxOldb6kmuGG._Qx1MyocJsyr3zn4WDbQrcEyjXdDz6gY7UQy2Zbl fgmg.WgFUw1Nmb8v5OO2IYfa0fGXPNEjncSqQXIRN.0OZc.maTyTWzx20_3p 9oLvkPY_fMen.8iyZLK2fUgOqbZFepWStQa7I2L8YDBKPp8yXWoiaipWyNKZ b0noriyc6wlAEIn0Ks5haJKswP5v29qzH23E7otYabW6Uyy.p0K0RNbRIF6L iNj.ko8oFLFl.Grc5wn5Ic8QQvENLBDJKL6NoPRTGkSsq6HwSV36sDfg6Dyw vb5zE8EpGvPag51m6YxeLZQBBJHmNQJCJmFqH3gCOrbztRyG1IRmFeRe5rOJ 4e5BcRqcMqlRckA-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:56:55 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/570 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.304355 References: Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:56:55 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.227 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Part of the problem seems to be with the notion of non-ka properties. A case could be made, I think, that all and only properties are referred to by ka-expressions. There are, to be sure, a large number of other abstract objects, often related to properties somehow, which are referred to by expressions using other members of KA (and maybe other form classes). So, the first question is, is this a question of whether these other things are also properties or whether these -- and ka-properties as well -- ought to be referred to using expressions like ce'u and kau, which officially belong elsewhere (or here but in more restricted situations: ce'u in functions, kau in indirect reference). Let's start with things, recognizing that things in Lojban can be of any degree of abstractness (and may be of different degrees depending on how you are looking at them). They are referred to by noun phrases: names, descriptions and an array of pronoun forms. In fact, reference to something in this way is what guarantees that, for present purposes, it is a thing. Things have qualities (and maybe quantities as well). These are referred to by predicates (relations are included here), Strictly speaking, predicates refer to Cantorian classes of things, the extension of the property. To say that a thing, referred to by a certain noun phrase (ko'a, say) has a certain quality, referred to be a certain predicate (broda), is to say that that thing is in the class of things (in the present universe of discourse) referred to by that predicate expression. That is, "ko'a broda" is true just in case ko'a is a member of the class referred to by "broda," {x:x broda} (to an acceptable degree for fuzzy cases). Along side this there is also the membership function of broda, le ce'u broda (?), which returns a value (in [0-1]) for each object, representing the amount that that object is in that class (~ has that property) and the characteristic function, le ni ce'u broda (?), which returns a value in [T - F] to indicate, for each argument, how true is the claim that that thing has that property. Neither of these latter things is a property, but rather a function from things to numbers (or something like them). A property is not only abstract, it is intensional; that is, it takes us out of the real world into the Cloudcuckooland of possible worlds (or something else to the same effect and less easy to understand). So, the actual property, brodaness, le ka broda, is (say -- we can place this a number of ways) a function from possible worlds to classes in those worlds, such that, in each world, the class is the extension of "broda" in that world. So, a property, while a function, is neither the membership function nor the characteristic function and neither of these is the extension/referent of a predicate expression. There are a mess (literally?) of other intensional objects floating around in Lojban: proposition, events and the like. The two noted are the only ones that are likely to be confused with properties, since there are parallels among them. Thus, if ko'a is a member of {x:x broda}, then "ko'a broda" is true, the event le nu ko'a broda obtains and the proposition le du'o ko'a broda is true. But notice that the things involved are very different: a physical object (a sentence) and two intensional objects, a class of possible worlds and a function on functions in possible worlds.. I will assume that I have performed adequately my usual feat of confusing the issues completely, but hopefully the answer to these questions is in their somewhere (that or the pony). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.