From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCnt_TvBBoEy5PZfA@googlegroups.com Sat Jun 18 14:42:11 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QY3HN-0000Kf-Ip; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:42:11 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf619692gxk.16 for ; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:42:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=D4NV0A7ux10AKV9POjoi2cmnB4utRzzcqWegDeBCWKc=; b=XQU756ze0MZbtNBhNNGQlrVJtlc+31866Cz2ZLthCpqx/e4FL6YqDuxUkWphDpUm/G QJBII3wi2ynUMvAPlg9IO6sk/NgpdTavxRbqQUzU4L5qHfmWXngQjZdOPaKF22dA/HT9 QuIPXmjbyKhl/5EFL+JtHBViaG2OGNiB/ITJs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=ElnilVCrzgrpCt1fswQT17zfjeHbQReS2efMvhjpm6zuHi7ZE6beuHLEBaOO8ji5RX YofHZ7VEFOfyREmmYgMfofphVRscGcp46T3qR+Bqf9SeZe+SnEhbLcoAEnKewMZ1SSsJ MiY+Kcc/l41oxE3DFiVq3uy6epfUTCk7X+bYU= Received: by 10.150.65.12 with SMTP id n12mr484753yba.25.1308433319787; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:41:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.44.22 with SMTP id r22ls3756255ybr.2.gmail; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.79.40 with SMTP id h28mr2062716yhe.37.1308433318888; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.79.40 with SMTP id h28mr2062715yhe.37.1308433318877; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm15-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm15-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.17]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id x55si2518839yhi.2.2011.06.18.14.41.58; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.17 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.17; Received: from [66.94.237.195] by nm15.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jun 2011 21:41:58 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.114] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jun 2011 21:41:58 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1019.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 18 Jun 2011 21:41:58 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 562961.78631.bm@omp1019.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 27875 invoked by uid 60001); 18 Jun 2011 21:41:58 -0000 Message-ID: <408274.89218.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: QfbFw3YVM1now1zX5fER6v05T_pGXp7JGll5KzIa2n8EAD5 QtDQn4xsqUe_AMVkgd.Kthi0GYqTWocIs_28f2QtzFAWichDiy6VdYhlfKT5 hnVhxjV_fZiA9.P.s0Pv6T83lS2IFavtY4m7iGV20tHM6BGoyoypDRBTfz7c TGFwCFtZnTHei.rfm.hB5HFLxiHGkbujaViRaoarQCle6yfIrTO7vY5NtI18 X9.trcuuGoTsW9r0N59s7EjYHJWTrcqhcaCNGhhUmOpf3Mz7xZglxou6Guya fWVSTnydrBkKa1YvqTBiBaTfuK7qwgS9.pzvnSXvSy8dMPyw_m_iNFZ5.V0L u1qYrd3klOlB2ghIz8kuwNYGQluBjLru00rcTWf4L1i0_sVcXhns.aNe1DRh NHY0mJXt5IcPwjNUixO9wYJZjBFeMV1CPVa42o_9cZOR6VWshsP1mhx4neCm dSL9f5By9_CdoCAhoCP38l8Thum5jaKB2PgPpIeASl.U- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:41:58 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/570 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.304355 References: <860642.20311.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <639278.90960.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:41:58 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <639278.90960.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.17 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Before someone calls me out on it, I mean "ambiguous in this world", since = every=20 predicate expression does have a non-denumerably infinite set of properties= . all=20 of which are identical in this worlds. So, the interesting cases are those= =20 which are ambiguous in this world, i.e., refer to sets that are different i= n=20 this world. ----- Original Message ---- From: John E Clifford To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, June 18, 2011 4:08:41 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties Sorry; I should have clarified "in text", there are , of course, properties= =20 never referred to or not in this corpus, etc. but, if they are referred to = at=20 all, they are referred to using ka-expressions (or indirectly). On the issu= e of=20 whether one ka expression can refer to several (though presumably even then= not=20 uncountably many) different properties, I gave to suppose that is as true a= s the=20 claim that some predicates are ambiguous, which seems certainly true -- may= be=20 even in a given context. =20 ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, June 18, 2011 2:17:43 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 3:56 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > A case > could be made, I think, that all and only properties are referred to by > ka-expressions. "Only", perhaps. "All", I doubt. The number of ka-expressions is countable, while the number of properties is not. Perhaps you are allowing the same ka-expression to be used to refer to more than one property. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.