From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCmk_nvBBoE8NNpRg@googlegroups.com Sun Jun 19 12:10:43 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QYNOK-0004Lu-LR; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:10:42 -0700 Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4sf1280126gyg.16 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:10:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=c8eB54jiMG+VQ0vvj+e59Xfi6NHQ2k9ngC+OiFG+VtY=; b=lGra9+0Mi90oqQpk/N1fOwe3J1qMqQm+htKC2XeD4YTndKOK4b+Opld+rNryQpjBbp vR4w51IiT/xsiQIYbGOOGQf89xLjKBlJdS6jJD169jmgpT8SKPMIKXtZxd1fQnr+qoUP vr4rr1R4GGKdlL0uEzRwvS5a3rPlvfMU+PSvY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=6Z5TDrvs000e6NaJ4JAUKqkTt664hqID0sFs6vvB7R3SfJrHCPqBvjPE6dw2qbUvqW muBkyuSOdk1EbkFiaB8QSfEfUR18wMbuDd9yQjcnuP2KkHSWb1BulF7RP4/8sTQB+TK2 7ZpXSrmX6Lm9g/qOxjizoiqLP7gK4CIvlIE9c= Received: by 10.236.63.209 with SMTP id a57mr333588yhd.52.1308510630656; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:10:30 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.212.20 with SMTP id o20ls1035355anq.3.gmail; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.218.17 with SMTP id v17mr2241239anq.5.1308510629737; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.218.17 with SMTP id v17mr2241237anq.5.1308510629704; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm2-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm2-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.66]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id j30si4563773anp.0.2011.06.19.12.10.29; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.66 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.66; Received: from [66.94.237.127] by nm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2011 19:10:29 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.109] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2011 19:10:29 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1014.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 19 Jun 2011 19:10:29 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 411145.34153.bm@omp1014.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 31777 invoked by uid 60001); 19 Jun 2011 19:10:29 -0000 Message-ID: <253896.29093.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: M37uDSMVM1mI1PWKr7fq.y_onQAqvXGXGPHnbo4vGicGjII rsRNrptAbEOPDajmy_It4KnctD6_MQGHQGfQhLLvT4HC6o.C1kNiQu5oDghk HGxGP_knUezcxoo9m0X5lIrzV2aMoLBg5W0H6mMyC9oWwwOMHu__NIPQdxQq smoIhkRtt1_dgs2qZnrPw2Skfz3rUYcaoRsMrc_VNLC6ZdBtEcfnfO5pbqWB qpsd1lHMrpQrDmWYXtwBNaKavvZ4WFhMcxMoCrL6B5FLjd5s5PP.IjvBFuoJ KcBUcp7EYCSDMsGZNhT02vUc4TG1KuQOrkIwKyheuIzjHc3pG5ZnpY562sXD .StQrUjU51UI3KQDke2LvgOJ34.1j_uLrGQm_s5y_RkO.oFmZSHF0zz6FifG kvVL0fFqWbVx_VB5vlVEfDf5onjAemd5c5L1nkW5ljL1la2xjnHlpdAlY_6w 22uZ2Xxfg5ATYS1j4VvVrcMEKr9L0A5INW.tjjekr2Q-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:10:29 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/570 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.304355 References: <860642.20311.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <639278.90960.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:10:29 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.66 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes I mean exactly such indirect references, so there are at least two way = to=20 refer to properties and the side claim that indirect references can in prin= ciple=20 be replaced by ka-expressions. I know this is not a very interesting claim= , but=20 I am trying to get at the point of this discussion, so I am sticking for no= w=20 with what I take is given in its presentation. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, June 19, 2011 9:12:05 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 6:08 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > Sorry; I should have clarified "in text", there are , of course, properti= es > never referred to or not in this corpus, etc. but, if they are referred t= o at > all, they are referred to using ka-expressions (or indirectly). By "indirectly" do you mean things like "lo se ckaji" or "lo jinzi" or "lo kambra"? I take it a ka-expression is an expression of the form "LE ka ", where the sentence contains an explicit or implicit "ce'u". If you define ka-expressions as the only direct way to refer to properties, then of course all properties that are referred to directly must be referred to by a ka-expression, but that doesn't seem to tell us much. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.