From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDQ_vnvBBoENAsBbA@googlegroups.com Sun Jun 19 15:59:40 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QYQxu-0006Tz-7o; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:59:40 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf826873pvc.16 for ; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:59:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-smtp :x-ymail-osg:x-yahoo-newman-property:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ND03yWVXTRuVenLOqhHyPtOqQXLLB+tM+Jz/GJbnnNQ=; b=38BPU39pwjjYYICxXBUfB+oozGwkvr5qs7AZioBvuRq7s4BV95M29VCWjL8abMxh5J /s7gpHUExObBWZaIk6QUaZzaFRU1qjLQgkRgc0ntVBG4zQW+icWIIMDDWb0/1jPFPPHm WLIFVQqNBksy25CkTqf+Jr7xWlGVqnnMUPZ6M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-smtp:x-ymail-osg :x-yahoo-newman-property:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OFMo8xaB2zYXdIZmpQkowiR5F+STsHzNN5swDw2ew05EzYMat5hfz5QiuLlG8lvlZX YNasDgX1RJq8WFkgza9v29PtECmZBc1O0UuY5VjI0He2pxCxDL4+5vxzcDGVRd8fIWiH C1SqsrElAkM6tHfFwQBhxjfO6TUZiw0mbznQM= Received: by 10.142.210.14 with SMTP id i14mr375868wfg.34.1308524368502; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:59:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.36.67 with SMTP id o3ls1344590pbj.0.gmail; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.59.232 with SMTP id c8mr797864pbr.65.1308524367384; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.59.232 with SMTP id c8mr797863pbr.65.1308524367374; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:59:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp105-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (smtp105-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.136.185.196]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id c10si10594328pbi.2.2011.06.19.15.59.26; Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.136.185.196 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.136.185.196; Received: (qmail 42574 invoked from network); 19 Jun 2011 22:59:26 -0000 Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp105-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 19 Jun 2011 15:59:25 -0700 PDT X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- X-YMail-OSG: LuIegYEVM1kuj9EGlT06s5JuQu51JrC45jF6ENEP2vciZF5 MfYRJX31nAur1nQXJCtYdj1E8odyK9TATK6ikdOXebdh9NGVC4ZQq89InnzE a3uSx6J_Ykvxv8Ke2Y.nirzqkFXj9Zego65_taGPzRsQtn9Grm.OwABVK4BK M08wD.T4Xj5DDhPxJUHtkkeUYj1UDGrjQ5UC2MKtM8fY.Oag7bgXlvYxdrN5 fAsdNwobOM4V5Dbvfd8OKmWMqtJy8sMFDZuJJ4DOiCbXmi4hptlrmVe6kgwK .wK0kOrbwiAa.p_zE6PqeSE6jxxgwE9z7U8B1voyT3bFlS0LIfqBcfXL6TX. kdwRl3w2GmPCdTkUuu0CmYzsnQ90oBVFCt5Pcg9NlIO4bdonlEj8KFfbiYYN eFmlmPaF_WsCI0L9D95HBAUh.8z4AWP_a3G0.E93qZoquxwPJOX9qmmDWJrK VjWRrhmIcQA-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 References: <860642.20311.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <940949.55292.qm@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_8941802_AHfHjkQAASgBTf5YDg47eilhg1I Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:04:12 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.136.185.196 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not following; the question was, I thought, whether the number of token= s was uncountable. So all that is relevant is the number of types (at most= aleph-null) and the number of situations in which a token of that type mig= ht be issued. That there are more properties than expressions for them was= never at issue, nor particularly relevant to the discussion, insofar as I = understand it. But I see I did make my favorite error and spoke here of pr= edicates (linguistic expressions) rather than the properties meant. And I = suppose the talk of description later adds to the confusion. The point is = merely that every possible situation that is counted under one property wil= l also be counted under other properties as well, but that duplication does= not bring the count down from in denumerable to denumerable. So, yes, the = size of the set of potential tokens is indenumerable. Sent from my iPad On Jun 19, 2011, at 16:11, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 4:28 PM, John E Clifford w= rote: >> Are you sure? I get confused in infinity (as any right-thinking person = should) >> but I have aleph-null types and aleph-null situations giving aleph-null = squared >> potential tokens. aHAH! There must be more than aleph-null situations b= ecause >> there are more than aleph-null predicates, each of which can occur alone= in at >> least one situation. And we can't reliably reduce these variant propert= ies down >> to others, even if every situation under one description is also another >> situation under another, Never mind. >=20 > I don't think the number of situations is at all limited by the number > of predications. Situations are the territory, predications are the > map. By the very nature of things, most situations won't be fully > describable by a predication. >=20 > It's not that complicated really. For example, for every real number > x, there is the property of being that number. There, already, you > have a cardinality of properties larger than aleph-null, most of which > won't have a ka-expression to express them. The number of expressions > is strictly limited by the discrete nature of language (or a language > like Lojban at any rate). >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.