From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDuv_7vBBoEf-Q64g@googlegroups.com Mon Jun 20 12:31:09 2011 Received: from mail-pz0-f61.google.com ([209.85.210.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QYkBb-0005yb-Sw; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:31:08 -0700 Received: by pzk4 with SMTP id 4sf4209191pzk.16 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:30:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0oN6ftGuASHvHZtOxrgXDAQja6u/VjfiBOZChP1RaEs=; b=SmmG/7xMNHZ1fCrJiGckFJpvvUcnKlCtMgMtlUhJ3SZW6HWWDTbpreBynEwR2STYtM vP+CD6DsW5AfIyb/cAKK+9emLij5iXhaf81aHitsGQEWrRNLs6t2xN2SA2m0cjFfiLS6 WiE3kY9eIM8z7l7X61HGJb6ClPolrCyYfC26E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=TOMB4mde7Wj7ir3f7x+6WnUE+3j6ynfxnQ39lCzz0fNZsvxvYVU0nrfwmuOLjUIGP1 Hhx4LT39ptII5y/BkMbWCHdwtANU7i0zBvjRAx8aSbdIqdVj0HhmTFAOT5EmYjhTQ+Et iQub67IzHvu385BNzaSbehIHBq0Q/d/lTCOTw= Received: by 10.68.29.97 with SMTP id j1mr474589pbh.17.1308598254234; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:30:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.15.3 with SMTP id t3ls1619870pbc.1.gmail; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.8.68 with SMTP id p4mr1055753pba.97.1308598253365; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.8.68 with SMTP id p4mr1055752pba.97.1308598253353; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f170.google.com (mail-pv0-f170.google.com [74.125.83.170]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c10si12541078pbi.2.2011.06.20.12.30.53 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.170 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.170; Received: by pvh10 with SMTP id 10so4212176pvh.15 for ; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:30:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.16.169 with SMTP id h9mr2505048pbd.206.1308598253119; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:30:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.59.194 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:30:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:30:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.170 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/6/20 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : > On 20 June 2011 13:00, Michael Turniansky wrote: >> 2011/6/20 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : >>> On 20 June 2011 10:01, Michael Turniansky wrote= : >>>> 2011/6/20 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ni'o >>>>> A second issue, which has been in my mind since I first considered >>>>> the kau approach: How does {ka broda} compare to {ka xukau broda}? >>>> >>>> =A0 =A0"ka xukau broda" Means "the property of whether or notit is >>>> broda". =A0It's actually probably identical (or nearly so) to the >>>> little-used "jei [broda]". >>>> >>> >>> Wait, in a {jei} there is no {ce'u}. >>> Anyway, the question is, isn't {ka ce'u broda}, when applied to a >>> specific object, the same thing? From your own interpretation, we have >>> =A0"the property of wether or not it is broda" vs >>> =A0"the property of being broda" >>> >>> -- >> >> =A0Yes, those are different. =A0The first is a binary value, whereas the >> second is simply "brodaness". =A0Example "mi se melbi lo mi gerku lo ka >> crino" -> " my dog is beautiful =A0because of his greeness" "mi se melbi >> lo mi gerku lo ka xukau crino" -> "my dog is beautiful because of the >> state of his being-green-or-not". > > I don't get it. Do you mean that {ko'a melbi fi lo ka broda} presupposes > {ko'a broda}? Or do you mean that a ka-xukau returns a strictly binary > value, while only a non-kau allows for fuzziness? In either case, I disag= ree. > > Also, I would translate to "in his greenness" > instead of "because of his greenness". > Yes, "in his greenness" is a better translation of the non xukau version. Yes, "xukau" returns a strictly binary value. It's not the exisitence of the "kau" per se that makes it binary. It's that the answer to "xu" is only binary, so "xukau" can only be a binary value. "xukau" basically translates into English as "whether" (The same way that makau translates as "who" or "what" (or possibly other values, depending on where in the bridi structure it is). --gejyspa --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.