From lojban+bncCIfp7ILVEBC9uYXwBBoEluVspw@googlegroups.com Tue Jun 21 20:08:56 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QZDoF-0005UJ-Ey; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:08:56 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf213462pvc.16 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:08:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ineSCWRwDw03zqfCOLSxjtX+qATC7btB/tkCs+mivG4=; b=W5XU9pA7gJ1HlAl+xWHPQWeMuJOFbNHPQIuN5yj3LGI8E2eXcs8NxJyhRApM3XdtMY wY7vAfW0WKxvsjsnlJPVyORfANmOgDtMKI7bF/qTT1ZhmTFjb7D8PH8maMjOp72qCROG XAesLUHju7fWQe98lzb2nEH4oFRJh0oHV6WD0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=RaXw6AKIUFTS7ZKkUiIw8qXTZ72e7C3hWexBJ3JuF8e458whIYtTMFET/4Ac7UGDOZ M1stEBpouIc6foMEGnBQsRKKGlZvelMmEWUPYiYXA17N8up4pOQvt4vtWzOgdcSzU6YJ XAZl5VbHtRNIU9liHKiNkwpc7QZtkWy66sEcI= Received: by 10.142.208.10 with SMTP id f10mr31084wfg.5.1308712125357; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:08:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.31.67 with SMTP id y3ls41188pbh.3.gmail; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.13.72 with SMTP id f8mr28811pbc.28.1308712124404; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.13.72 with SMTP id f8mr28810pbc.28.1308712124395; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f46.google.com (mail-pw0-f46.google.com [209.85.160.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c10si276752pbn.1.2011.06.21.20.08.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.46; Received: by pwj7 with SMTP id 7so492970pwj.33 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:08:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.25.74 with SMTP id a10mr68346pbg.78.1308712124284; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.48.102 with HTTP; Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:08:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 00:08:44 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/6/21 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > 2011/6/20 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : >> >> From the gimste, I would describe a se cipra as a pure ka, non-kau, >> property. > > I consider a ka-kau a pure property, just not fully specified. > I consider a pure-ka a predicate with a variable argument, and a ka-kau a function. At least, this is what I was asking for in my first message. Perhaps you mean that the {kau} thing means "whatever fits here"? >> That is, in a cipra the te cipra is tested for whether it >> satisfies a certain predicate, specified by the se cipra (or for how wel= l >> does it satisfy that predicate, in a fuzzy approach). > > The wording may suggest that, but it seems to be unnecessarily restrictiv= e. > > Compare: > > pajni lo du'u xu kau ta glare > "... determines whether that is hot." > > cipra lo ka xu kau ce'u glare kei ta > "... tests the hotness of that." > > pajni lo du'u lo ma kau jimte ti > "... determines what the limits of this are." > > cipra lo ka ma kau jimte ce'u kei ti > "... tests the 'what are its limits'-ness of this." > "... tests the limits of this." > >> Reading a ka-makau makes me wonder if the cipra is being interpreted >> as some kind of measure of what stands in the place indicated by {makau}= . > > A determination or assessment, yes, not necessarily a measurement. > Hmmm... Sorry, I am a bit confused about the examples. Could you translate {cipra fi ko'a fe lo ka makau stuzi ce'u}? >> ni'o >> A second issue, which has been in my mind since I first considered >> the kau approach: How does {ka broda} compare to {ka xukau broda}? >> >> (My current understanding still is that they mean the same) > > In the cipra case, or in general? > > If you think "cipra" has a "xukau" embedded as part of the definition > of its x2, then it may be equivalent to use "lo ka" or "lo ka xu kau" > in that place, but in general they are not equivalent. > I meant that in general. But now I agree with you. I would say that a ka broda is as close to a ka xukau broda or a ka makau jei ce'u broda as a predicate is to its truth value. Some times they might be interchanged, but that is se sumti dependent. mu'o mi'e .asiz. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.