From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDQo4nwBBoETZcRmw@googlegroups.com Wed Jun 22 13:34:41 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QZU8A-0003fX-HL; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:34:41 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf637921pvc.16 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=b0KuIhRcP85XmCBK6Wbhex3d2/zba7cWLvUpBxe4o2U=; b=7A/ouFBRZIXT9jkMLj+wyoVyR/Jp7zMFOwip6PxTLh9onG9ZUdCqolT8V3rwezhX8Q RdtIpd6kImtOalKAOOcM60NR0s09zdDqNTwIdIdsIiBVgFDrdKAZrJNWbifMcUMkgHYn +41FdDTefwWkGpVDpnSu7snYOxJeesWKwi8bo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=kxE9jklmaSJz9in09gsl9XCBbhsqJBrzaQz0EKWtAK7uEzzynL5pGArKwAPOrpSpEJ tFQOM7GLSKYjg7IJvlcZl7G6ZQWXFEEk+grpLtSHXKwPZJBO8uzzM+5FfunTTwttvkwD u0lgLSJELC52wVrqeTW0gw2ermKcGHPToAc5E= Received: by 10.68.13.2 with SMTP id d2mr96022pbc.61.1308774864922; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:34:24 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.36.67 with SMTP id o3ls318676pbj.0.gmail; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.22.129 with SMTP id d1mr204495pbf.96.1308774862913; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.22.129 with SMTP id d1mr204494pbf.96.1308774862894; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pw0-f43.google.com (mail-pw0-f43.google.com [209.85.160.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c10si1932112pbi.2.2011.06.22.13.34.22 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.43; Received: by pwi9 with SMTP id 9so966675pwi.30 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:34:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.39.40 with SMTP id m8mr697058pbk.258.1308774862565; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.55.104 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:34:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:34:22 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec520e8d5c62fef04a652e46f --bcaec520e8d5c62fef04a652e46f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps the underlying issue is that we're trying to do too much with just {ka}? (Then again, this could be my tendency to statically type Lojban screwing things up again.) mu'o mi'e latros 2011/6/22 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis > 2011/6/22 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : > > 2011/6/21 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > >> 2011/6/20 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : > >>> > >>> From the gimste, I would describe a se cipra as a pure ka, non-kau, > >>> property. > >> > >> I consider a ka-kau a pure property, just not fully specified. > >> > > > > I consider a pure-ka a predicate with a variable argument, and a > > ka-kau a function. At least, this is what I was asking for in my first > > message. Perhaps you mean that the {kau} thing means "whatever > > fits here"? > > > > By the way, this is my main point of investigation. Some bridi appear > to require a function in a specific place, others appear to ask for a > predicate with a free argument. > > For example, in {zmadu}, it makes the most sense that the x3 should be > a function with an ordered set as a codomain. In {mutce}, it makes the > most sense that the x2 should be a function for whose codomain there > is a notion of extremeness. Similarly for {mleca}, {traji}, {jibni}, etc. > > In these cases, a pure-ka could be understood as a shorthand for a > kamakaujei. > > On the other hand, the x2 of {ckaji}, {cipra}, {sisku} and {simlu} is > clearly just a predicate with a free argument. > > Stating a {ckaji} is just an indirect way to state the bridi obtained > by applying the predicate to the x1. > > In a {cipra} you test how the predicate is true after substituting the x3= . > > In a {sisku} you search the set x3 for an element that makes the > predicate true, which certainly involves one or more {cipra}. > > Finally, a {simlu} is just the subjective version of {ckaji}. > > In all these cases. I can make no sense of the bridi when the x2 is > a function. All the interpretations of a ka-kau there hereon given > appear to be in a direction contrary to ka-kau expressing a function. > > > I hope I could make my point clear now. > > mu'o > mi'e .asiz. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --bcaec520e8d5c62fef04a652e46f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Perhaps the underlying issue is that we're trying to do too much with j= ust {ka}? (Then again, this could be my tendency to statically type Lojban = screwing things up again.)

mu'o mi'e latros

2011/6/22 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>
2011/6/22 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>:
> 2011/6/21 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:
>> 2011/6/20 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis <felipeg.assis@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>> From the gimste, I would describe a se cipra as a pure ka, non= -kau,
>>> property.
>>
>> I consider a ka-kau a pure property, just not fully specified.
>>
>
> I consider a pure-ka a predicate with a variable argument, and a
> ka-kau a function. At least, this is what I was asking for in my first=
> message. Perhaps you mean that the {kau} thing means "whatever > fits here"?
>

By the way, this is my main point of investigation. Some bridi appear=
to require a function in a specific place, others appear to ask for a
predicate with a free argument.

For example, in {zmadu}, it makes the most sense that the x3 should be
a function with an ordered set as a codomain. In {mutce}, it makes the
most sense that the x2 should be a function for whose codomain there
is a notion of extremeness. Similarly for {mleca}, {traji}, {jibni}, etc.
In these cases, a pure-ka could be understood as a shorthand for a
kamakaujei.

On the other hand, the x2 of {ckaji}, {cipra}, {sisku} and {simlu} is
clearly just a predicate with a free argument.

Stating a {ckaji} is just an indirect way to state the bridi obtained
by applying the predicate to the x1.

In a {cipra} you test how the predicate is true after substituting the x3.<= br>
In a {sisku} you search the set x3 for an element that makes the
predicate true, which certainly involves one or more {cipra}.

Finally, a {simlu} is just the subjective version of {ckaji}.

In all these cases. I can make no sense of the bridi when the x2 is
a function. All the interpretations of a ka-kau there hereon given
appear to be in a direction contrary to ka-kau expressing a function.


I hope I could make my point clear now.

mu'o
mi'e .asiz.

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