From lojban+bncCIfp7ILVEBClzInwBBoEF_5S0Q@googlegroups.com Wed Jun 22 15:01:30 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QZVU8-0005uP-4X; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:01:24 -0700 Received: by wwf27 with SMTP id 27sf3099474wwf.16 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:01:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tJTrnq9Z+XaqERlVQlUkNg7DDLl7e3RLoxD2Bbujcbc=; b=ZF1nzJRaCEulIXkV/GFuPgH5HF2x5eIKNe4pcbHysCFeQAZDx7fUkuVQR+wte6NRAu WQXCb4Lh7Ra7CpLE8aLIRazkhOjR6AA1wt84dVmaLlLxLc3wWpQmESqHZkyLBDWin883 waxgA8exzzZ4gAAPQrqH6ghaJOcnc4wFTweDg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=a5Ta9abo8zxF2m9WdhEh7ZgjtN9E4xv4+9uSBzdyhTrCIv9l7F1IRHFOtK4TryzzAw REhhgSAzG4VeGmLma5kNgN9mucJxWTU7JGd7/EYdMijYnr90v7WmkohwCdDjrTkUdnf1 d4opz5iwR9xwMTM52N3YRr74+1jQEDRQZIhFY= Received: by 10.216.230.228 with SMTP id j78mr520439weq.23.1308780069468; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:01:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.11.92 with SMTP id 68ls257960eew.4.gmail; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.125.9 with SMTP id y9mr160947eeh.58.1308780066904; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.125.9 with SMTP id y9mr160946eeh.58.1308780066885; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ey0-f173.google.com (mail-ey0-f173.google.com [209.85.215.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u44si635287eef.0.2011.06.22.15.01.06 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.215.173; Received: by eyb6 with SMTP id 6so447332eyb.4 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:01:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.14.8.69 with SMTP id 45mr928098eeq.130.1308780066469; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.99.197 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:01:06 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <659366.53221.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <659366.53221.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:01:06 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Felipe_Gon=E7alves_Assis?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: felipeg.assis@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of felipeg.assis@gmail.com designates 209.85.215.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=felipeg.assis@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 22 June 2011 18:14, John E Clifford wrote: > And mine is, what function (if any) is the ka-kau?=A0 All of the usual > functions around this area seem to have specific expressions, so is this > another way of saying one (or another) of these (and, if so, which) or is > this a new function (some new functions) altogether? > ? The ka-kau would be a function taking the {ce'u} to the answer of the indirect question marked by {kau}. This is a very convenient way to express a function, possibly loosely defined. > > ________________________________ > From: Ian Johnson > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Wed, June 22, 2011 3:34:22 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties > > Perhaps the underlying issue is that we're trying to do too much with jus= t > {ka}? (Then again, this could be my tendency to statically type Lojban > screwing things up again.) > > mu'o mi'e latros > > 2011/6/22 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis >> >> 2011/6/22 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : >> > 2011/6/21 Jorge Llamb=EDas : >> >> 2011/6/20 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : >> >>> >> >>> From the gimste, I would describe a se cipra as a pure ka, non-kau, >> >>> property. >> >> >> >> I consider a ka-kau a pure property, just not fully specified. >> >> >> > >> > I consider a pure-ka a predicate with a variable argument, and a >> > ka-kau a function. At least, this is what I was asking for in my first >> > message. Perhaps you mean that the {kau} thing means "whatever >> > fits here"? >> > >> >> By the way, this is my main point of investigation. Some bridi appear >> to require a function in a specific place, others appear to ask for a >> predicate with a free argument. >> >> For example, in {zmadu}, it makes the most sense that the x3 should be >> a function with an ordered set as a codomain. In {mutce}, it makes the >> most sense that the x2 should be a function for whose codomain there >> is a notion of extremeness. Similarly for {mleca}, {traji}, {jibni}, etc= . >> >> In these cases, a pure-ka could be understood as a shorthand for a >> kamakaujei. >> >> On the other hand, the x2 of {ckaji}, {cipra}, {sisku} and {simlu} is >> clearly just a predicate with a free argument. >> >> Stating a {ckaji} is just an indirect way to state the bridi obtained >> by applying the predicate to the x1. >> >> In a {cipra} you test how the predicate is true after substituting the x= 3. >> >> In a {sisku} you search the set x3 for an element that makes the >> predicate true, which certainly involves one or more {cipra}. >> >> Finally, a {simlu} is just the subjective version of {ckaji}. >> >> In all these cases. I can make no sense of the bridi when the x2 is >> a function. All the interpretations of a ka-kau there hereon given >> appear to be in a direction contrary to ka-kau expressing a function. >> >> >> I hope I could make my point clear now. >> >> mu'o >> mi'e .asiz. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. 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