From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDH0onwBBoEzIyiaw@googlegroups.com Wed Jun 22 15:14:43 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QZVh3-0000LF-QG; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:14:43 -0700 Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31sf1713203qyk.16 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:14:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1YuJCgp0Wv0wrYnF6i2LqwSibBOP+PBaV+j/1S3HYhQ=; b=xCRe/Chx44RnKjGfX+xVC4dDWr+anbECgZcfr0VXMa89wbRKPW0XP0zmBHHEzOGGbB S8wj4OWhcR57FIOUANuQXrn5ir+LAF0XKXJq7ZKbbTBK4ojk90mMw4kSsU/ugmxW9fFf JqaQPyL7kdlXrdQ83yQ0Ss8wg17nhKlQqFGj4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=vONFoXXxHHRnubKL1NAqh8IM6I3GDUNP9a6IGOrZX8diop8yXAezajY/3ggE0IK99B uH6DcxtalqQmlIqwxajMfLm1yoTtLfRAg32Rgg1VftudU1gZ+HA0WEyMYx03pcCVowKw IfLF7c5y5IbfLNyt1kSYdxSaHanYDG8jB2pK4= Received: by 10.224.75.193 with SMTP id z1mr169993qaj.38.1308780871615; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.187.71 with SMTP id cv7ls264510qab.1.gmail; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.186.80 with SMTP id cr16mr1138593qab.11.1308780870785; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.186.80 with SMTP id cr16mr1138591qab.11.1308780870764; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f180.google.com ([209.85.220.180]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k34si836505qcj.3.2011.06.22.15.14.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.180 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.180; Received: by vxd7 with SMTP id 7so1444661vxd.11 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.99.69 with SMTP id eo5mr1727656vdb.303.1308780870194; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.181.234 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:14:30 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.180 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/6/21 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : > 2011/6/21 Jorge Llamb=EDas : >> >> ro da poi de stuzi da cu ckaji lo ka makau stuzi ce'u >> "Everything that is located somewhere has the property of being >> located wherever it is located." > > Clearly {makau} can be replaced by {di} or {zo'e} here. If you agree > that the converse also holds, than we can say that a {makau} in a > se ckaji ka-makau might be logically replaced by {da} or {zo'e}. "zo'e" is different from "makau". The value of "zo'e" is something obvious from context or unimportant. The value of "makau" is (roughly, there are caveats) the value that makes the bridi true. For example: - xu do ckaji lo ka ce'u klama lo zarci - je'u mi ckaji lo ka ce'u klama (zo'e) "Do you have the property of going to the market?" "Indeed, I do have the property of going (there)." Admittedly it's a contrived example, but any use of "ckaji" seems contrived. In any case, context suggests that the value of "zo'e" is the market. - xu do ckaji lo ka ce'u klama lo zarci - je'u mi ckaji lo ka ce'u klama makau "Do you have the property of going to the market?" "In fact, I have the property of going wherever I'm going." Perhaps a somewhat rude answer, but no hint of the value being the obvious one from context. As for "da", it is also different. If I'm going to Paris, then in "mi ckaji lo ka ce'u klama makau", "lo ka ce'u klama makau" stands for "lo ka ce'u klama la paris", which is a different property from "lo ka ce'u klama su'o da". "The value that makes the bridi true" can be problematic when there is no value that makes the bridi true. The opinions are divided as to whether "mi djuno lo du'u do klama makau", "I know where you are going" has a presupposition that you are going somewhere, or whether it might still be true if I know that you are going nowhere. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.