From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhDm0YrwBBoE_eNAQA@googlegroups.com Wed Jun 22 19:46:10 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QZZvk-0006U0-QR; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:46:10 -0700 Received: by fxm14 with SMTP id 14sf1701947fxm.16 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:46:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=XVPvLC2EAPu7pq3fV2HBFOm3BaJiCUxg9UE7Cdk+4Mk=; b=QwEKnUd0oMRjRF+DLWcia07hjgCslIDODK7ql/lZx+8WRbShK0lqZ9ybMA2BGE9pR4 3iRDiHz6NO2l5ri+iFDTKUIybNtIYZ4xdNfbuXeSBwLOpN3T9q6nko91WyYitBzphZXS ho2OsVlqkB/PjhOVHPV1iPzW4N+lRBfVeckAY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=GxmCB9Qablxqqt5lnZtL9GgeW7Korm51R/Zj9vfU4HlaTnpouIcslPFGbQ4h1BywYo vccieqg/+HhSkY3jZYdh13fPr8+NXunSt4IfigxbAj1eDP2qa9Vr0qesVoKMF/x82FOX LoeGjO9NfjFLbEJ4QDtgxbRMILCXzHihIHHSw= Received: by 10.223.14.84 with SMTP id f20mr291185faa.20.1308797158421; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:45:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.34.76 with SMTP id k12ls602944bkd.0.gmail; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.46.145 with SMTP id j17mr45949bkf.18.1308797157270; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.46.145 with SMTP id j17mr45947bkf.18.1308797157251; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f41.google.com (mail-bw0-f41.google.com [209.85.214.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j17si238321bkt.3.2011.06.22.19.45.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.41; Received: by mail-bw0-f41.google.com with SMTP id 17so1835968bwz.14 for ; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:45:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.17.148 with SMTP id s20mr335351bka.133.1308797156059; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:45:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.50.152 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:45:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:45:55 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Lojban puzzles From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec554070e91e9d604a6581579 --bcaec554070e91e9d604a6581579 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I should have clarified; I was asking about the difference. I can see how their meanings are different, but there's some subtlety in the first place that I feel I should have a better grasp of. Just to make sure I understood the example, I'll try to translate it to English: Someone avoiding doing x isn't a volitional entity doing x, but who causes someone else to do x. On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 10:33 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > Is this a puzzle or are you asking about the difference between zukte and > gasnu? > > In case the latter: > gasnu has x1 bringing about an event. mi gasnu lo nu lo fagri cu sisti -> > I put out the fire. > zukte has x1 doing a thing. mi zukte lo nu bajkla lo mi zdani -> I run to > my house. > > The trick I use to keep them straight is that if it feels weird to have the > x1 agent as one of the sumti in the x2 event, then it's probably gasnu. It > doesn't always work but it usually helps frame the question. > > I'm sure one of the jbocei will chime in shortly and give a more > technically precise distinction > On Jun 22, 2011 10:10 PM, ".arpis." wrote: > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec554070e91e9d604a6581579 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I should have clarified; I was asking about the difference. I can see how t= heir meanings are different, but there's some subtlety in the first pla= ce that I feel I should have a better grasp of.

Just to make sure I = understood the example, I'll try to translate it to English:

Someone avoiding doing x isn't a volitional entity doing x, but who= causes someone else to do x.

On Wed, Jun= 22, 2011 at 10:33 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:

Is this a puzzle or are you asking about= the difference between zukte and gasnu?

In case the latter:
gasnu has x1 bringing about an event.=A0 mi gasnu lo nu lo fagri cu sisti -= > I put out the fire.
zukte has x1 doing a thing. mi zukte lo nu bajkla lo mi zdani -> I run t= o my house.

The trick I use to keep them straight is that if it feels weird to have = the x1 agent as one of the sumti in the x2 event, then it's probably ga= snu.=A0 It doesn't always work but it usually helps frame the question.=

I'm sure one of the jbocei will chime in shortly and give a more tec= hnically precise distinction

On Jun 22, 2011 10:10 PM, ".arpis." &l= t;rpglov= er64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:

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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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