From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDqpZjwBBoEq1ceQg@googlegroups.com Sat Jun 25 09:55:21 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QaW8b-0001JZ-3o; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:55:21 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf5096300qwh.16 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:55:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QYkRIUiZZT/r9O+xxn7bGY3zxMuCnIJ0ZIHXxGfarHE=; b=H07bW55sAsbiFQ/2ftGkqsgN6Fmn7uj8nMRDKnykb8JD140Vjnf97JTCx5wvTlZZcS R2yPgEZFf0TjzbAQtfRWPx6IgnRB9FGb+Jnw/DLFd+OX9arFhLKtcQY3bgTIYD2xd1K1 vZbO5i6isY6oHCNDtX+X/iggkeMpDSZll3MMM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=TAeG6nMiYNLhBG3ac4wsiZNO6ro1yhcpFxNoAi7xNjs2hcY2WeWHRjbzc/RGhiz4hq y+TIc0o/C8HzfzA3lHV1l0MyylTDEmSK8alrWEueUsoV3W4Ba/dCHWPgT4n/jsumd0QV bxwxj4BOlCbPYHjOSBkqSUk61DDfZJ5nBsvVA= Received: by 10.224.178.76 with SMTP id bl12mr594549qab.29.1309020906495; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:55:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.42.129 with SMTP id s1ls1586qae.6.gmail; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.196.196 with SMTP id eh4mr4425180qab.3.1309020905941; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.196.196 with SMTP id eh4mr4425179qab.3.1309020905930; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f42.google.com (mail-vw0-f42.google.com [209.85.212.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k32si3215794qcs.1.2011.06.25.09.55.05 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.42; Received: by vwl1 with SMTP id 1so3046016vwl.29 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.179.4 with SMTP id dc4mr5990761vdc.97.1309020905586; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.107.6 with HTTP; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 09:55:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 13:55:05 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/6/23 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : > > Could you point me where this general meaning of {kau} is explained? I don't think there is any detailed explanation of "kau" anywhere, largely because we haven't agreed on one. There has been a lot of discussion about it on this list, if you have the patience to search the archives. > Anyway, I guess {kau} is just not what we were looking for. You understan= d > what things I am trying to express, right? They are just functions, so th= at > I can use {zmadu} to say "f(x) > f(y)", {jibni} to say "f(x) is close to = f(y)" > and {traji} to say "f, restricted to X, has maximal/minimal value at x". = I am > just asking how to express f in lojban. Your first two examples, the way you wrote them, make no reference to functions, they just make use of one. They would be expressed simply as, for example: "lo se mitre be ko'a cu zmadu lo se mitre be ko'e" or "lo se nanca be ko'a cu jibni lo se nanca be ko'e". But I do understand what you are trying to express, you want a way to refer to a function, and you are saying that "zmadu" or "jibni" should take functions as their x3 argument. Those are two separate issues: (1) how do we refer to a function in Lojban and (2) do "zmadu" and "jibni" require functions as their third argument. As for (1), I don't think Lojban provides a grammatical construct to refer to the functions that can be generated from a predicate, for example to refer to the function that maps people to their names. You can of course use "lo cmene be ..." and fill the blank with a reference to a person, and the resulting expression is a reference to the name of that person, i.e. the value of the function in question for that value in the domain, but that's not a reference to the function. You could refer to the function in the longwinded fashion: "lo fancu be lo prenu bei lo valsi bei lo ka makau cmene ce'u", "the function from people to words by the rule of what their name is", but there is no cmavo (say "lo'au") that condenses that into something like "lo'au cmene be ce'u". As for (2), while it would have been possible to define "zmadu" and "jibni" that way, they just weren't defined that way as far as I understand them. > I really feel that this was the spirit in which these gismu were defined. > You talk about complex objects, and compare them with functions with > simpler, structured codomains. If that was the spirit, they forgot to include the grammatical machinery to refer to functions, unless they intended to have long expressions like "lo fancu be ..." in all such places. But to my knowledge nobody has ever used those places that way. Your idea of using "lo cmene be ce'u" to refer not to names but to the function that maps people (or things) to names has been proposed before, and maybe someone has used "ce'u" like that. Personally I don't like it, because I think something that starts with "lo cmene" should refer to names, and the function that maps people to names is not itself a name. I would suggest using a function cmavo, like "lo'au", for that. But my feeling is that just as we don't need to refer to sets because we can say all we want to say about the members of a set by referring directly to the members, then we probably don't need a short way to refer to functions because we usually want to say things about the values of the functions, and not about the functions themselves. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.