From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCRyZjwBBoE1KoQkA@googlegroups.com Sat Jun 25 11:10:40 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QaXJT-000127-Pf; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:10:40 -0700 Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4sf4607592gyg.16 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:10:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Dzv60fFFlncT7Xk05z1eeF2GHMyf7A7EvcvBEvk7yVI=; b=j/FuGrjSDlabPgFsuaxfFgZaFYYhaXxOqHNQSbVsx5t6HFV1GnutmdJPYZ/2IpWKTb T1Ex9PIyuLsY7zL3t3C8eynu8lNaGeMC4ZeTc48GD+qbmhbde/s++OvXMHTv3jLglZmL 0wM0Ar5odUaqbiN1NQNzmItwn84EqKn6oLoHA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=225sk6eaDMY8GuIhMzp7QgcPZSIaQzr2aXbeKQ8alZUlmmIB9yb2z8rj9GDCp5oomr lETeno0tcjBElPP/qH4RE01KBQWuIrqQj8TmY9cPqmbBtP0ukjwarnO/bJX8r9lPeIRR Rl72QKwlGDYdE1V6/5CsWR6fp4VDtfCP4z4GY= Received: by 10.150.170.10 with SMTP id s10mr544561ybe.46.1309025425559; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:10:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.150.19.38 with SMTP id 38ls831883ybs.6.gmail; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.170.68 with SMTP id o44mr2209536yhl.66.1309025401183; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.170.68 with SMTP id o44mr2209535yhl.66.1309025401145; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.220]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id l51si2427396yhe.1.2011.06.25.11.10.01; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.220 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.220; Received: from [66.94.237.192] by nm19.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Jun 2011 18:10:00 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.120] by tm3.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Jun 2011 18:10:00 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1025.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 25 Jun 2011 18:10:00 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 766720.80812.bm@omp1025.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 56508 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Jun 2011 18:10:00 -0000 Message-ID: <593434.20725.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: Nt1xJ5AVM1mnBlVsFWbZxNB4wkJwaEcv9Rjzet_3lAB9ZdV s0WGBrnVbAZA.MRqNS6Fhc4F7sCAKAUVAFOFlah7YsyUBwHr9Fui7G5RxTo0 4td2GS1AWKmhm959AgvE45J2l0NtY238RkQl7JDZ0eW5sYR1i7RAfzn_9C7f lcyNLvlpxNdnS7tJDq2p4vCNDz12ShDW5TSKCHUE9edFYqeKPW_roAHGJCwT nhezUViks_MhZsiCw5L0q1rTw5CsCNrHH6V2x0LHzVnTGkr9flm3fG_eKJ7Z RHSwl2TAOsvi594_i1JHJ8XdOr.QoX6imj2pKaWb_RB6VVyZmY6dqbglRSN5 oNFFKClldx8V.C5GHczXvmtSx5KhYkMzfkMBTw1Iav7mTNofFONiOMMu2OZE XtbFT5SRgIggGnnf0tt1SuOi_uv6DZ.Q683byhADVjVqEhEGSfILpiZvGC1K qmJjnoizKqjdi060cY7wprtVKSLk.jx4q6UXr4TwkrQ-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:10:00 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/572 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.304355 References: Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:10:00 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.220 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {kau} is an indirect question marker, according to CLL. It is hard to see = how=20 that can expand out from there to anything else (though it may easily be=20 expanded to contexts other than {lo du'u), other sorts of abstractions, in= =20 comparable senses: I know what fits in here, and the like. But what can it= =20 possibly mean in a main clause? The nearest thing I've seen to making functions out of predicates seems to = be=20 {na'u}, which makes an operator (close to a function apparently) out of a= =20 selbri. I suppose this would require some specification somewhere of domai= n and=20 range at the introduction, but (in spite of not being mekso) {na'u cmene ce= 'u} =20 seems to work in theory. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, June 25, 2011 11:55:05 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties 2011/6/23 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : > > Could you point me where this general meaning of {kau} is explained? I don't think there is any detailed explanation of "kau" anywhere, largely because we haven't agreed on one. There has been a lot of discussion about it on this list, if you have the patience to search the archives. > Anyway, I guess {kau} is just not what we were looking for. You understan= d > what things I am trying to express, right? They are just functions, so th= at > I can use {zmadu} to say "f(x) > f(y)", {jibni} to say "f(x) is close to = f(y)" > and {traji} to say "f, restricted to X, has maximal/minimal value at x". = I am > just asking how to express f in lojban. Your first two examples, the way you wrote them, make no reference to functions, they just make use of one. They would be expressed simply as, for example: "lo se mitre be ko'a cu zmadu lo se mitre be ko'e" or "lo se nanca be ko'a cu jibni lo se nanca be ko'e". But I do understand what you are trying to express, you want a way to refer to a function, and you are saying that "zmadu" or "jibni" should take functions as their x3 argument. Those are two separate issues: (1) how do we refer to a function in Lojban and (2) do "zmadu" and "jibni" require functions as their third argument. As for (1), I don't think Lojban provides a grammatical construct to refer to the functions that can be generated from a predicate, for example to refer to the function that maps people to their names. You can of course use "lo cmene be ..." and fill the blank with a reference to a person, and the resulting expression is a reference to the name of that person, i.e. the value of the function in question for that value in the domain, but that's not a reference to the function. You could refer to the function in the longwinded fashion: "lo fancu be lo prenu bei lo valsi bei lo ka makau cmene ce'u", "the function from people to words by the rule of what their name is", but there is no cmavo (say "lo'au") that condenses that into something like "lo'au cmene be ce'u". As for (2), while it would have been possible to define "zmadu" and "jibni" that way, they just weren't defined that way as far as I understand them. > I really feel that this was the spirit in which these gismu were defined. > You talk about complex objects, and compare them with functions with > simpler, structured codomains. If that was the spirit, they forgot to include the grammatical machinery to refer to functions, unless they intended to have long expressions like "lo fancu be ..." in all such places. But to my knowledge nobody has ever used those places that way. Your idea of using "lo cmene be ce'u" to refer not to names but to the function that maps people (or things) to names has been proposed before, and maybe someone has used "ce'u" like that. Personally I don't like it, because I think something that starts with "lo cmene" should refer to names, and the function that maps people to names is not itself a name. I would suggest using a function cmavo, like "lo'au", for that. But my feeling is that just as we don't need to refer to sets because we can say all we want to say about the members of a set by referring directly to the members, then we probably don't need a short way to refer to functions because we usually want to say things about the values of the functions, and not about the functions themselves. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.